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Home My WebLink About2008-10-20 (Regular) Meeting Minutes• • 1. Call to Order ENGLEWOOD CITY COUNCIL ENGLEWOOD, ARAPAHOE COUNTY, COLORADO Regular Se11lon October 20, 2008 The regular meeling of lhe Englewood City Council was called to order by Mayor Woodward at 7:45 p.m. 2. Invocation The invocation was given by Council Member Mccaslin. 3. Pladge of Allegiance The Pledge of Allegiance was led by Council Member Mccaslin . 4. Roll Call Present: Absent: Council Members Jefferson, Moore , Penn , Oakley, Mccaslin , Wilson, Woodward None A quorum was present. Also present: City Manager Sears City Attorney Brotzman Deputy City Manager Flaherty City Clerk Ellis Director Gryglewicz , Finance and Administrative Serv ices Director Fonda , Utilities Director Kahm , Public Works Direc tor White , Community Development Senior Planner Langon , Community Development Operations Divis ion Manager Tallent , Wastewater Treatment Plant Commander Sanchez, Police Department Eng in eering Technician 1 Dye , Public Works 5. Consideration of Minutes of Previous Session (a) COUNCIL MEMBER PENN MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER McCASLIN SECONDED , TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE REGULAR CITY COUNCIL MEETING OF OCTOBER 6, 2008 , Mayor Woodward asked If there were any corrections or revisions . There were none . Vote results : Motion carried . Ayes : Council Members Penn , Mccaslin , Moore , Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson, Oakley Nays : None Recognition of Scheduled Public Comment (a) Ashley Folso m, the Pirateer Business Manager, said journ2 '.'sm is an academic class produ ci ng th e school ne ws paper . Class time Is devoted to production of the school newspaper and all the aspects ... from Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 2 report ing to photography to des ign and layout to editing . The Pirateer is completely student directed and student produced . The newspaper is published seven times a year and while most of the work is accomplished during clas~ :•me , one final proofing session , ~er issue runs from 3:15 until the issue is fully compleled and proofread . On average the students remain al school unlil around 9 p.m. Because keen minds function best when they are well feed , ii has become a tradition to slop the production process at around 5:30 p.m. in order to refill both min d and body ... and students en joy sharing a fam ily-style dinner. For the lasl two years th is has been mostly a potlu ck dinner. Previously , we have ordered piua, but when annual tab came oul, ii was roughly $600 .00 or more . We decided to try potlucks , which has been less expensive , but not always a reliable food cho ice . Any ass istance that you could provide for us , one or more meals will be greatly appreciated . Brenda Folsom sa id we were asking for $200 .00 . Mayor Woodward said typically at this time . we do not respond . This is an opportunity to talk directly to Council , but usually at the end of the meeting , under Council Members Choice , address requests or any po ints that were made . Various Council Members said thank you . (b) Jennifer Stephenson said I am a senior at Englewood High School. Kelli Mowrey said I am also a sen ior at Englewood High School . Ms . Slephenson said we are part of the AP Spanish class at Englewood High and AP stands for Advanced Placement. All AP classes include rigorous academic work that is equal to a th ird semester in college . If we pass the AP exam in May , we will get dual credit for our work this year . Ms . Mowrey sa id in preparation for the AP exam in May , we are pla nning a trip to Costa Rica in order lo solidify our knowledge and prove our skills and listening and speaking and our confidence in our language skills and to gain an understanding of another culture first hand . Ms . Stephenson said what she is talking about is basically just an itinerary of what we will be doing in Costa Rica . So, our trip consists of a home stay , in which we will be • staying with a native family and we will have home cooked meals and we will be submerged in the culture of • Costa Rica . We will have school every morning and in the afternoon we will be having a lesson such as surfi, ,g , Lalin danc ing , such as the salsa and also cooking classes . Then one day of our stay is devoted to a service project. And then another day will be devoted to a rain fores! excursion and a tour . While we are in school, we will have the opportunity to talk with Costa Rican students of our same age that are learning English so that we can practice our Spanish skills while they practice their English skills . The most important point of our trip is that ii is not a tour group . It is a language intensive submersion program . Ms . Mowrey said the only problem that we have had in planning th is trip is that each student needs to raise $2 ,800 .00 in order to do this . The money incl udes all meals , room and board and all of our class fees and airl ine tickets . And the money has to be in by December 19'", so we need help . We have done some fundraisers , such as bake sales , drawings and we are beginn ing a silent auct ion , but we aren 't making lhe kind of money that we need in urder to give it lo this pros,dm on deadline . Last year we tried to go to Spain and we lried this same kind of trip , but we couldn 't ra ise the money in time . so th is is our second chance and we are coming to ask you for some help . She said if you have any questions we would be glad to field those . They each said thank you . Mayor Woodward said !hank you . Council Member McCaslir said ca n I ask you a quick question ? How many students are involved in planning to go ? Can you giv e me an i,1ea . Ms . Mowrey said six students and our Spanish teacher . Ms . Stephenson sa id howe ver, th e money is go ing to be an important Issue . So , I mean , not all six of us may end up going . Mr . Mccaslin sa id okay , thank you . Both girls sa id thank you . (c ) Mr. Norwood McFarland , an Engl ewo od resident , said I am making a complaint aga inst the two officer s ... it happened over two weeks ago by my place . A man and anolher lady that lived down about a block and a half from my mother 's place ... and I don 't know whal 's go ing on in th is ne ighborhood down here , but I've been living here wit h my mother for 16 years . But the problem , when I walk up thal road , she started hollering al me an d told me that I was on her property, bul I was nol on her property because she had a hill , is like that and I have a right to walk on that sidewalk ... it belongs to the City of Englewood . But I don 't know what was wrong . • When I got lo my house lhat day , then I went on home and got my things ready , and here comes the two officers to my house . And she slarted hollering at me and started screaming at my molher. My mcther did no• know what W'1S going on out there from the beg inn ing . She would not even let ml' moth er speak to her . She Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 3 • started screaming at my mother and started holler ing at me . I don 'I even have the officer's name , but I did make a complaint aga inst the Sergeant. When I went to the Police Station over a week ago , and he made a report , but I did not get any informatio n fro m him at all . But we are hoping to do something about these two officers and get the Chief of Pol ic e to do his job right. And I do not know the Chief of Police , but I have the eight lo get my stuff out of n1y garage and walk up that road without having any problem on that street. I did have a aeJlher trouble before , over a year ago by another lady that lived in that one corner in ano ther house . But I don't know , I can 't even explain to you . Bui I have a problem with my condition , my seizures . and I have to be careful . And , that is what the officers told me, not to walk in the middle of the street or coming up here, I have a right to walk on that sidewalk to come home from my job . And , I am not bothering anybody in that neighborhood , but I ho~e to gel my mother moved out of that place and get that house up for sale someti me . We do not know when she is going to want to gel out of the re, but if she wants to stay there , that is up to her lo live here . Bui th is letter here , I want you to read this and t11ere are some ... maybe that I didn 't get the words right in here , but you can read it and see what you can do and how you guys can straighten this out for me . I would be very happy about the City Council , including the Mayor , to do the job and I would not have to solve th is problem and running back and forth down here and coming to t~e Police Department every day . I did , but I did not get the information from the officer yet... and that was last w•ek . So , I gave them my telephone number and my address and everyth ing . But I don 't know what to say any more . This has been going on for awhlle In that ne ighborhood down there and including another guy that lives across the street from that woman , that causes trouble with me once in a while . I just cannot explain the people right in the neighborhood here . And, I cannot even talk to the officer at your station over there . Bui, we are hoping to get better officers in th ;, City of Englewood and do their job right and talk to the people right , not causing the problem in this neighborhood . So , with this letter I made last night so I could bring it in today and give ii to you guys ar.d whoever the City Council can vote for this year, and get the right people on you r job here . But , I don 't know what else lo tell you , but I am tr,ing to be honest with you people and I have my job to do too In the day time instead of having to run around with the Police Department every day . But , they told me I was on her property and I am not trespassing on her property . She has a hill with • no sidewalk on It a~d I wis h one of the officers go by and have a picture taken and give ii lo you guys the next time ar:l yo11 can take ii to your meet ing , next Monday . So , we can prove who that woman is . I do not see her in that hous~ all tile lime ... do not see her out in the yard . Her car is parked on the side once in awhile , but she is not al that house every day and I don 't even care what sh& looks like . I don 't even talk to the pe'Son lhere ... thal lives in that house . So , I would appreciate ii , if you would ... you , the City Council ... meet with you and the Mayor together to do their job and find out what happened two weeks ago . This happened ... lhls is what my letter is about , that I prepared for you last night... to give to you guys . If you could talk to the Ch ief of Police and talk to that woman ... why she hollered al my mother. My mother tried to speak to her ... she would not even let my mother speak to that woman there . And, she started scream ing ... there was another officer standing ne xt to me , he started laughing at me . Those officers should be taken off that job and look for a different new job ... and I don 't care what ii looks like . I tried to be honest with those officers , but you cannot talk to anybody in this ne ighborhood and I have a run around with these people every time com ing bac k and forth and I don 't have time to come back and forth on these buse s. I have to take the bus to come over here and I live on Vallejo Street and you got your office over here , only about a mile and a half from your house lo get over to you guys . So , if you want this letter, I wll l give ii to you . Ma yo r Woodward sa id yes , would you please give ii to the City Clerk . And thank you . 7. Recognition of Unscheduled Publlc Comment (a) Nancy Peterson taid I am bearing gifts tonight. I had the privilege of going through big boxes ol pictures , historical pictures , from severa l years of projects that were oone here in the City while I was re ign ing terror on the City . There was laughter. One of those was back on March 24 , 1995 and some of you , and I was wishing that Jerrell Black was here , because he was one of the mugs that was on here , but I know that Jeff Sanchez will remember th is and I am sure that Rick is going to remember it. Tom for sure remembers 11... Tom Burns . Bui , the police office rs in the City of Eng lewoo d did a swat raid on City Hall . Frank , you remember, do you remember Frank be ing arrested here al City Hall? She said yes , you do , but he is embarrassed now , but he • does remember . I have a letter and some great pictures . Tom Munds , yo11 were here tak ing all those pic ture s, rem ember taking pictures ? Swat ra id on City Hall . He was here tak ing pictures . I've got a letter here from the American Cancer Society saying , on that particular date , we ra ised a whoppi r,g $21 ,346 .29 and at that time I was go ing lo call them and see if tha t was a record at that time ... l was going to call and see if that record had Englewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 4 been broken . But you know , ,n retired lifij y~u don t ha •,e any time , so don 't ever retire because you don 't ~ave any time . But I wanted to see if lhUt record had broke r for a single day event. Anyway, I brought th is letter , I brought the pictures ... here is Al Stanley, Dbug c :~rk and all these wonderful peopl e ... all handcuffed ... Jerrell Black and Frank be ing hauled off in paddy wagons with the swa',, team in tow. So I thought, you know, I didn't want this to go into the tr~sh . I thought it needed to come here . And also , ii has my name on it... but it has lo do with the City of Englewoo,1 , I iust was the instigator. That was that reign of terror that I was talking about. So , here it is , I'm bringin g it he,e. And then , Gary Sears lsn 'I gett,n g away with anyth ing . I can lell you back 1 D years ago , or however long it w;;,s , he still had the same colar hair as he does now ... so he can't blame his color on the City. There was lau,1hter . Here are some pictures of Gary stand ing on a table helping with the Christmas buffet and here also Is Gary in a race car getting read~ to race away . So , I have some pictures for you too Gary . He said than~ you . She said in gettin~ re ady to come down here I lelt a bunch vf plclures al home . II doesn't seem like I did, because when I was coming ;n here I was buried . So , I need to get a bunch more pictures down here . And I've got pictures of lhe Mayor dancing in the mid dle of the street. I've got pictures of us in the middle of Broadway for NatlMtl Night Out wilh McGruff doing all kinds of projects . There were so many wonderful pictures that there was j11 st no way that I could see those going in to the trash . Whal I call th is is "Remember When ". I just went through and you know, for Commander Sanchez ... ! was going to call him Sergeant...Commander Sanchez , his ha ir really has chaoged color since then ... and I have proof in the pudding over here . His definitely has really changed color a lot... so I have pictures ... Buddy ... over here for you . I have, in fact , a whole box of pictures if I can get you to take this back and you might help me with the names too , because I might have messed up on their names . And I have a whole entire box of pictures for Fire . I don 't see anybody from Fire here ... and I know they have the ir anniversary coming up and they are looking for historical pictures , so if you could take care of that for me too . And Rick , I told Ladd I had a bunch of pi ct ures for him here and I seem to have lo st them between home and here , so tell him I will give them to him ... I haven t forgotten him. Mayor Woodward sa id that will give you a reason to come back Nancy and show more of your photos . Nancy said I had them , but I just don 't know what the heck I did with them . Anyway , I'll hand these over to Frank so he gets to look at them fi rst, since he de finit ely was one of those people . I am going to give these to you if I can come up there , Gary . He said sure . (b) Tom Bums sa :d Nan cy called me th is morning and asked me to come down with her and I've always referred to her as the wonderful Nancy Peterson . In my 7 years as Mayor , I missed one Neighborhood Watch meeting , as I was out of town . I was there all the time so Nancy and I got pretty close . She did a wonderful job . She ha d one of the best Neighbcrhood Watch outfits , as you know , in the State and in the Nation . She has got awards from all over the place for her work . It is wonderful to see her again and I'm sorry she had to retire , bu t she is just a terrific lady . So she has given me a bunch of pic•ures and this on e I especially like , here is Nancy with a stuffed dog , McGruff, the dog holding an umbrella which is yellow and has a duck 's bill on the front of ii and a couple of duck eyes . II is a very disti ngu ishe d picture of th e May or . Mr . Burns said there are a lot of wonderful pictures here but it is good to see &v erybody and I'm glad to come down and honor th is lady like this . Thank you . Mayor Woodward said thank you Tom and Nancy . He said for you who don 't know, Nancy was our 2007 Citizen of the Year and had worked for the City for many years and haaded up the Neigh bo rhood Wa tch Program ... a very successful one ... one of the most successful in the Nation . So , thank you . Nancy said it was my privilege and I really enjoyed it. There was ap~lause . She said I will be back with more pictures . (c) Joyce Parsons said I am also a retired employee wit;, the City and I would like to address the • • Council and ask that you may consider extending the sam e benefitr, :o retired employees that we had as employees ... for use of the Rec Center, Golf Course and Malley Center . We lose all those be nefits when we retire and it would be nice to partake of the Golf Course , the Rec Center , the pool , the Malley Center and all the • re st of It Of course , when we re tire we could go to the Malle y Center. And that is my only request. Vario us Counr.il Members said thanks , Joyce . • fnglewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 5 (d) Matthew Crabtree , an Englewood resident , said just a real qu ick thing regard ing all the meetings aga in. I wo uld like to present... well , I would like to respond It Co uncil Member John Moore 's comments from the last meeting . I obv iously had a presentation about th is before you guys last time and I would lik e lo respond again . In response to John Moore 's comments during Co"ncil Members Cho ice . It is just a simple clarificat ion , I guess , but I would like lo stale that your comments that you made , that I bel ie ve were al ong the lines of, 1f you C:ecide to vote during the Study Sess ion , you have that right if you de cide In vote there ... Council Chambers ... you sa id sometoing along those lines . AnY'vay I just wanted to make it clear, make it un derstood that obviously Council Chaml ·s is legally the only place that votes can be taking place right now in the City , not during the Study Sess ion , be.ause there is no formal recorc' rema ining . But , with teat sa id, Mr . John Moore , I would like to commend you though for a comment made dunng Study Session , actually being the last Study Session last Monday , you did actually follow everything to the tee . I was very impressed . Actually I was happy that you clarified the consensus decisions ... separating that from vote , mak ing sure that there was a proces s in place and understanding the process , or mak ing sure that everybody understood the process , that no votes were made in there . You don 't have to look over at me every time you do that , but I am happy actually lh HI you are doing that and hope you keep it up . As you mi~ht know , I am recording this meeting . I've recorded Study Sess io ns for t~,e last few times ... actually the last few Council Meetings also , but I just hope we stay with dec isions and votes being made in Council Chambers . Keep the decisions away from Study Sess ions . I would like to throw a comment. .. interestingly enough during the last Council meeting there was an issue with the record ing system . Part of the meeting , I guess It got lost and ironically I was recording the meeting at the time and I just wanted to let you guys know that there is a side benefit to me recording these meetings . I was able to provide Lou Ellis a cop, of my recording and she was able to supplement the notes of the actual meeting and I did it gracefully , I had no problems with it providing that to her. I came down during lunch at work and gave her the CD . I would enjoy doing that aga in. Obviously we are recording , our group Englewood Citize ns for Open Governmer.t , is recording these meeting, on the benefit of having a record of t~e meetings as the City does not • want to keep the recordings past one year. So , we are working towards putting these on our website , englewoodcitizens .org , and have it ava il able lo the public . I really hope the City eventually tries to do th is with the ir own re cordings and get rid of the one year timeframe that the recordings are kep'. and put the information on the internet like the other cit ies . There are many other cities in the Denver me tro area that have kind of gone into the 21" century here and they have these meetings available to the publi c for an unlimited time period on the internet. Now one last th ing , the cost of the CD 's. If I go and get an Open Records Request for a meeting , the prices for that ra nk anywhere from $5.00 , $50.00 or $100.00 . I mean , on a cost to get a copy of these meetings Is really great. Now , very graciously , thank you very much for th is, but I was also provided $5 .00 to ECOG for the copy of the recording and we are very , very thankful for that. But, please no offense taken to this but as we talked to the group , we believe that all in format ion should be free . This information should already be ava il able to the publ ic . So , I would like to be able to give this money ... this $5 .00 ... even though it is just $5.00 , it is just the fact that I was willing lo give this information free to the City . I would hope that in the future , the City would be willing to give that information free to the public. So , I would like to actually give the $5 .00 back , if there is -1ny avenue lo do so , I am not sure how to do th is, as a donation or if it has to be whatever, but.... I don 't want to screw up Frank 's budget . If you could let me know if there is anyway that I can give this back to the City . Again , we wo uld like to see that th ese recordings are free to the public . Oh , one last th in g actually , it wou ld be nice actually ... 1'11 be real quick and I'm probably runn ing out of time ... if it is not an option to put these th ings on the internet , t11e record ings from th e City , maybe put a copy of it in the Library . A CD doesn 't take up much space down the re and would save Lou Ell is and her staff a lot of time , if that i11'.ormation was at the library for people who are curious . Again . thank you Lou Ellis , you do an excellent job and thank you all . Mayor Woodward said thank you . 8. Communications , Proc!,matlons and Appointments (a) A letter from Nicole Kelley announcing her resignation from the Keep Englewood Beautiful Commiss ion was considered . • COUNCIL MEMBER McCASLIN MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON SECONDED, TO ACCEPT THE RESIGNATION JF NICOLE KELLEY FROM THE KEEP ENGLEWOOD BEAUTIFUL COMMISSION . Ayes : Counc il Members Peno , Mccas lin , Moore . Woodward , Jefferson , Englewoo d City Council October 20, 2008 Page 6 Wilson , Oakley Nays : Non e Mobon carried . (b) A Proclamation declar ing the week of Octo ber 19 lhrough 25 , 2008 as Nat ional Save for Ret irement Week was consi dered . COUNCIL MEMBER OAKLEY MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE SECONDED, TO APPROVE A PROCLAMATION DECLARING THE WEEK OF OCTOBER 19 THROUGH 25, 2008 AS NATIONAL SAVE r--,R RETIREMENT WEEK. Mayor Woocward sa id this be ing , specifica lly, a hard lime to be sav ing for retirement over the lasl month (there was laughler), I do want to read just~ part of the National Save for Retirement Week informat ion that we have . National Save for R•lirement Week is the first congressionally endorsed National event that formally calls on employers lo promote tne benefits of saving for retirement and encourag ing the ir employees to take full advantage of employer sponsored plans . In pasl years , both the U.S. Senale and House of Representat ives have approved resolulions designating National Save for Relirement Week, the th ird week in Oclober . Mayor Woodward asked if there was any further discussion . There was none . Vote results : Motion carried . Ayes : Council Members Penn , Mccaslin, Moore , Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson , Oakley Nays : None M3yor Woodward said accepting our Proc lamat ion tonight is Frank Grygl awicz who is our Direclor of Finance for the City of Englewood . 9. Consent Agenda (a) App•oval of Ordinances on First Reading There were no addiliooal items submitted for approval on first reading . (See Agenda llem 11 .) COUNCIL MEMBER MV lRE MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER PENN SECONDED, TO APPROVE CONSENT AGENDA ITEMS 9 (b) (I), (II), (Ill) and (Iv), 9 (c) (I) and (II). (b) Approval of Ord inan ces on Second Read ing (i) ORDINANCE NO . 57, SERIES OF 2008 (COUNCIL BILL NO . 68 , INTRO UCEO BY COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE ) AN ORDINANC E AUTHORIZING AN INTERGOVERNMENTAL GRANT AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF ENGLEWOOD , COLORADO , ANO ARAPAHOE COUNTY , COLORADO , FOR 2008 OPEN SPACE GRANT FOR THE PLATTE RI VER BI KE/PEDESTRIAN BRIDGES PROJECT . (ii) ORDINANCE NO . 58 , SERIES OF 2008 (COUNCIL BILL NO . 70 , INTRODUCED BY COUNC IL MEMBER PENN ) AN ORDINANCE EXTENDING AND AUTHORIZING THE EXECUTION OF AN "INTERGOVERNMENTAL • • AGREEMENT FOR THE INTERNET CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN REGIONAL TASK FORCE ' BETWEEN • THE CITY OF COLORADO SPRINGS AND MEMBER PARTIES INCLUDING THE CITY OF ENGLEWOOD , COLORADO . • Englewood City Council l,.:tober 20 , 2008 Page i (iii) ORDINANCE NO. 59 , SERIES OF 2008 (COUNCIL BILL NO. 71 , INTRODUCED BY COUNCI L MEMBER WILSON) AN ORDINANCE AUTHORIZING AN INTERGOVERNMENTAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF EN GLEWOOD, COLORADO , AND THE STATE OF COLORADO , AUTHORIZING THE EXECUTION OF THE MATCHING GRANT APPLICATION A ND AGRE EMENT FO R THE 2008 INSULATE CO LOR ADO PROGRAM FOR EXISTING HOMES . (iv) ORDINANCE NO. 60, SERIES OF 2008 (COUNCIL BILL NO. 72 , IN TR ODUCED BY COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE) AN ORDINANCE APPROVING SUPPLEMENT NO. 164 TO THE SOUTHGATE SANITATION DISTRICT CONNECTOR'S AGREEMENT FOR THE INCLUSION OF LAND WITHIN THE DISTRICT BOUNDARIES. (c) Resolutions and Motions (i) RESOLUTION NO . 74, SERIES OF 2008 A RESOLUTION AUTHOR IZING A MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING ENTITLED "FACILITY OWNER 'S MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING FOR THE GOVERNOR 'S ENERGY OFFICE ENERGY PERFORMANCE CONTRACTING PROGRAM" BETWEEN THE COLORADO GOVERNOR'S ENERGY OFFICE AND THE CITY OF ENGLEWOOD, COLORADO. (Ii) THE PURCHASE OF A MANURE SPREADER FROM KUHN NORTH AMERICA, INC . IN THE AMOUNT OF $69,972.61 . • Vote results : Motion carried . Ayes : Council Members Penn , Mccaslin, Moore , Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson , Oa kley Na ys : None 10. Public Hearing Items (a) Mayor Woodward said this is the continuation of a Public Hearing , fro m Octo ber 6th, to gather input on Co un cil Bill No. 65, a proposed amendment to the Un ified Deve lopment Code establi sh ing an exception to the minimum lol width and area requirements for su bd ivis ion of properties in all R-1 zone districts . COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER JEFFERSON SECONDED, TO OPEN THE CONTINUATION OF A PUBLIC HEARING TO GATHER INPUT ON COUNCIL BILL NO. 65 , A PROPOSED AMENDMENT TO THE UNIFIED DEVELOPMENT CODE ESTABLISHING AN EXCEPTION TO THE MINIMUM LOT WIDTH AND AREA REQUIREMENTS FOR SUBDIVISION OF PROPERTIES IN ALL R-1 ZONE DISTRICTS . Ayes: Council Members Penn . Mccaslin , Moore, Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson . Oakley Nays: None Motio n carried an d lhe public hearing opened . All witnesses were duly sworn . Senior Plar,er Langon sa id for your considerati on is & continuation of the Public Hearing for Council BIii No . 65, the UD C amendment to establish a subd ivision exception fer minimum lot width an d minimum lot area • requ iremenls in lhe R-1 zone districls . I have previously su bm itted for the reco rd, Proof of Publication of the origi nal hearing in lhe Englewood Herald on September 19'" and on the City's website on Seplem ber 17th to October 5'" and then continuation of the Hearing was also pu bl ished in the Herald and also repu blished on the web. I previously submitted the Slaff Report and I've also submitted a copy of the Special Notice of Continued Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 8 Public Hear ing that was requested by Counc il be sent to the people that spoke at the May 14" Board of Adjustment and Appeals Hearing . At Counc il's discretion , I will replicate my testimony from the October 6" hearing for the benefit of those who were not here or I can answer any questions . Mayor Woodward asked if there were any questions . There were none . Mayor Woodward sa id since there are no questions I would like to proceed with the Publ ic Hearing . Ms . Langon said if I could just address two issues that were raised at the Publ ic Hearing before ... that were misconceptions about the Bill that might help for this evening . She said one was a question of how many other subdivis ions had been done under the policy and there have been no other sebdivlsions considered under the pol icy for the 5% lot dimens ion changes . And there was also an issue that the question of any mod ifications to a lot width should go to the Board of Adjustment and Appeals . The reason it was not included in the ordinance to go to the Board of Adjustment and Appeals is that the Planning and Zoning Commiss ion is the proper authority for review and consideration of subdivisions . They already review major subdivis ions and there is a clause in the UDC that any minor subdivision , which would be the case with any subd ivi sion that would util ize th is exception , can be raised to the level of going to the Planning Commiss ion , rather than an administrative decision if that subd ivision should include or invol\'e significant Issues of conflict , health, welfare or safety . The Planning and Zoning Commission is the land use Board and , more appropriately , the correct Board to review such decisions . Also regarding the Board of Adjustment, any variances require adherance with four different criteria ... all of which must be met. The final criteria Is th at the request for the variance should not be self- imposed . Therefore , any subdivlsion ... because there really is n't a reason to subdivide that would have anyth ing really to do with the cond ition of property ... it is really more or less an Iss ue raised by the property owner ... there really isn't a way to meet that condition . Therefore , the variance would not be granted and therefore, the variance through the BO A would be a meaningless process . So , I just wanted to address those two issues that • the Planning Comm ission is the proper plac e for this issue and then also , that there were no previous ... actually • no subdivis io ns under this policy . Thank you . Mayor Woodward said thank you . Mayor Woodward said there are 15 people signed up , but first I would like to ask Council If there is a time limit that you would like to pu t on speakers . Is there any des ire? Council Member Moore said I think 5 minutes would be a reasonab le target, if they don 't mind . Mayor Woodward said okay , 5 min utes . Is that acceptabl e to the members ? It was agreed upon . Asd the other item I would suggest to the public is if you are repeating what somebody else has said , you may want to utilize your time a little better by just stating that you agree with the ir position and stat in g a position of your own or new and addit io nal information . Kathleen McGowan , an Englewood res ident, said I would like to thank City Council for allow ing us the opportunity to speak tonight. Please exc use me if I seem a bit nervous , I'm not used to publ ic speaking . I wou ld also like to thank , I bel ieve it was , Councilwoman Jill Wilson for your motion to notify those of us who had spoken earlier opposed to the same type of sub-development before you tonight. We appreciate being given this cons ideration we didn't get from the Community Development Department. I am here ton ig ht with a group of great ne ig hbors oppo se d to Councll Bill 65 . We support the existing UDC criteria for subdiv isio n. We co ntend , that partic"larly in District R-1-C , the 50 foot lot width and 6,000 square foot lot area are small enough . We oppose the 5% reduction and promoting development of smaller lots . We believe the Roadmap for Englewood Comprehensive Plan and the ex isting UDC Code do not support th is BIii . I have a letter signed by 68 citizens of Englewood opposing th is BIii and I would like to submit that into evidence, if I could . Earlier this year, on March 31 ", I submitted another letter to each member of you at City Council , Alan White and Audra Kirk of Community Development, Mr. Sears , Mr . Brotzman , and I bel ieve it is Mr . Kahm . The letter signed by 46 Eng lewood citizens opposed the subdivision of 291 9 South Ogden Street. Community Development Director • Alan White granted the subdivision based on a 5% reduct io n in lot width . We appealed to the Board of Adjus tm en t and Appeals . On May 14" the Board uphe ld our appeal and overturned the decis io n of Director White . The minutes of the Boa , d meeting ... Ms . O'Brien said the policy relie d upon by the Director of • Englewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 9 Commun ity Deve lo pm ent was not a val id method to ch ange the UDC . Without a change in the UDC , there is no bas is to support the dec ision of the Comm unity Devel opme nt Director . Mr . Cohn staled that City staff left a piece out of the act ion . The rule book has to be defendable . By agree ing with Mr. Cohn that City staff left a pie ce out of the action , I bel ieve that City staff has aga ,n left some pieces out. We bel iev e the issue was settled by the Board ruling . I th ink that a current case , where Commun ity Development granted a subd ivi sion based on this 5% criteria , should be sign ificant and rel evant to the proposed Bill 65 . C:ty staff should have included in the background , an analys is presented to both Plann ing and Zoning and Counc,I for public record , the fact that Commun ity Development had already gran ted a subd ivi sion , whi ch was apposed by 45 neighbors and overturned by the Board , because City staff did not follow the UDC .. ;ust 20 days after the Board's decisio n on Ju ne 3". City staff recommended Plann ing and Zon ing allow the 5% reduction as part of the housekeep ing amendment. Housekeep ing amendments such as amends the te ;m, single family dwell ing to one unit dwelling . Th is se em s like a very disingenuous attempt to push through th is 5% reduction . Thank you for directing staff that ii was not a housekeeping amendment and that it needed to be presented as a separate amendment. City staffs reports and prese ntation s to Planning and Zoning and City Council ... and therefore publ ic record ... have completely adm itted any reference lo the case opposed by 45 Englewood citizens . I understand that Commun ity Development will defend that the current amendment is not about a single property , but how do they poss,o i, justify that the May 14'" case and Roard decis ion are not relevant and significant enough to have been includeu in the background and analys is of th is amendment. While Community Development obviouslv fell no obligation to inform our citizens group that th is matter was getting continued ... I believe that they absolutely have an obligat ion to Plann in g and Zoning , City Counc il and the people of Englewood to have presented the case as to significant , relevant and current background , analys is and fact. I don't believe Community Development should be allowed to only present information which supp orts their recommendat ions and ignore and omit facts , which don 't support their recommendations . As to the recommended Bill, it is not consistent with the Roadmap of Englewood and the UDC . The 5% reduction creates a loophole , which creates small lots . Loopholes promot ing developers to create non-confonming , substandard lots is not part of the Roadmap . And the UDC • prohibits this type of variance , especially in R-1-C where we already have the smallest lots . It does not make sense to make the lot smaller even !f it is only by 5%. I don 't bel ieve it should be supportive of goal for either to improve the commui:ity quality of life , to improve neighborhood design , wh ich is encouraged by traditional des igns in res idential and mixed use areas that foster both ne ighborhood identity and civic pride . I will skip some other Information in here that I wanted to cover and go righ t to my conclusion . Although I do think that there are other parts of the UDC , such as, not promoting large garages , which are also relevant. What is the direction of resident ial development in Eng lewood ? We do not oppose development. Many new homes have been bu il t in our ne ighborhood but it does not support creating loopholes for smaller lots . I would as k that you uphold the integrity of our ne ighbo rhood , that you please do not allow this type of subdivision to go through . Thank you . Mayor Woodward said thank you . Christian Mills , an Englewood res ident , sa id thanks for the opportunity to speak tonight. I'm here to vo ice my opposition to the proposed am endments to Council 811165 and I will note that I wholeheartedly support everyth ing that Kathleen just sa id. Specifica lly , is the amendme nt to the UDC Code Section 16-8-4-B : Lot Des ign and Spec ificat ions . I will keep this br ief, as we have se veral people who want lo speak . I would like to make three po ints th is evening . First , the proposed amendments to allow subd ivi sion of lot s in the R-1 zone dis tri cts . is rerl<le ss . Englewood property owners ma y be negatively impacted in a financ ial manner because of it. Seco ndl y allowin g subd iv is ion of lots that don 't mee t lot min imums is in direct conflic t with parts of the UDC Code and the Englewoo d Roa dmap ... some of whi ch Kathleen jusl spoke about. And lastl y, I bel ieve th e pro cess to arrive at this po int , that we are at ri ght now, has been flawe d and it seems to us ... seems to me ... that Commun ity Development has reached a pre determined conclus ion , at the expense of the Englewood property owners . My first po int is National Save for Retirement week couldn 't come at a better time . I'll submit that none of us are going to protest we are in tough eco nom ic times . We have extreme market volatility , fuel prices and fall ing home values have created a scary economic stonm . A family 's home is often its greatest financial asset , abo ve and beycnd retirement plans , persona l sav ings and in fact , the advent of re vers e mortgages is testament • of the ab ility to annu itize a home to help fund retire ment years. Allowing for a decrease in lot size . es pecially in R-1-C lots , the smallest in the City , can sign ificantly impa ct our home values in a negat ive manner. Nat ional lead ers on both sides of the aisle , have stated that stab ih zatio n of home values is key to our economic re cove r. Th is in cludes Englewood and all of us . Now ,s not th e tim e to gamble recklessly with issues like dens ity , Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 10 • neighb orhood continuity and any measure that is opposed by your constituents , as evidenced by the signatures on the letter that Kathleen subm itted and the neighbors that have shown up here to r.ighl. So , first of all , I strongly object to these amendments based upon the possible financial ramifications to myself and to my neighbors . Secondly , allowing subdivision of lots that don 't meet minimums conmct with portions of the Code and the Englewoou Comprehensive Plan : Roadmap Englewood , Section 16-6-10 number 5 is front lot coverage states that as re investment occurs ... which is happening across the street from me at 2919 South Ogden Street... as re investment occurs the open character of the front yard area should be preserved . As an example , the proposed subdivis ion of 2919 South Ogden , directly across the street from me , by necessity has to have garages on the front. Have you ever walked into a room when the bed was too big for the room? II is like welcome to my bed , You know what I am talking about? When I sit in my front yard now , I am going to be looking al two garages if th is goes through , I don't want to do that, I war.I to look at another front porch and at my neighbors . Kathleen already spoke about the Comprehensive Plan Section 504, so I won't hit on that, I think to respect your wishes . Another point is the footprint of homes that were designed for R-1-C were n,uch smaller footprint when the Code was developed years ago , The same Code was upheld In 2004 , Now, a lot of homes that are being built they max out lot size, that Is not going to fit with the character of these older neighborhoods and espec:~lly in our block of South Ogden Street. In our neighborhood there are no homes that don 't have a front yard , but the proposed subdivision will do away with that. This would dramatically alter the character of our ne ighborhood . The last point is it seems that this amendment is really being pushed through by Community Development. Stages along the way, it seems as if it is a predetermined conclusion and there have been very li ttle requirements for the subdivision . How many of these proposed amendments have there been over the last few years ? Another one of us got one to two times since 2006 , So now Mr . Curnow , the owner of 2919 South Ogd en , has presented why he thinks this Bill should be passed , And as noted , when Kathleen mentioned In the May 14'" meeting which kind of mysteriously has lost any mentions of the proceedings , We have 46 neighbors who or igin ally opposed that subdivision . We feel that Community Devel opment is siding with the developer over our wishes as Englewood property owners . He said reading the July 21 , 2008 minutes of the meeting sim ilar to this , It Is noted that Mr . Casebolt , Mr. Cumow's attorney, says that he has filed a compla int of some kind with • Arapahoe District Court and mentions also in those same minutes , that a remedy could be achieved if the property was subdivided , So , I would also like to know has Mr. Curnow now asked for any legal remedy in the form of a settlement , lawsuit , arb itration , negation regarding this maller? Can anybody answer that? Council Member Wilson said we can 't answer anything until the end at Council's Choice to let people know the answer , Mr . Mills said okay . Mr. Mills said no clear decision can be made If this matter is outstand ing , because the decis ion could be clouded by the d1icision based on some sort of legal remedy . So , I will conclude quickly , I am opposed to the amendll'enl of Council Bill 65 , because I th ink it benefits a few al the expense of the many . I will ask you to look at the folks tonight and recognize that we are here lo preserve the character and integrity of our neighborhoods in Englewood . Thank you . Mayor Woodward said thank you . Maureen Dehne , an Englewood resident , said I spoke last time and I thank you again for notifying us with the letter , otherwise I would not have known , I am here , I guess , on more of a personal level and more of why I moved to Englewood . I lived in Denver for quite some time ... my whole life . I moved to the Amherst Avenue estate , as I like to call it , because it's got nice land and because of the charm of the neighborhood . And you know, I know Ch ristian and Kathleen has talked a little bit about that but... the neighborhood is very charming and th ere are people that do enjoy having property around their ~••mes where there is not one home slacked upon another home . As Christian had mentioned earlier, there is continuity on the blocks with having front yards and net hav ing garages to look al. While I don 't live directly on Ogden Street , I do drive down ii, I do know the people on Ogden Street and I just have to tell you, it Is very charming and when I was looking at ne ighborhoods , you know , if I wanted high dens ity I would have gone to Highlands Ranch, I could go to Stapleton , I could do that. We built these houses on very small lots . The neighbors loose the ir privacy to their own backyards and to their front yard , and to me that is very , very important. I know the last time when we spoke to you , we were • talking about the bu il der was trying to Improve a distressed area . I don 't considN my area as distressed at all. In fact , the houses are not up for sale for very long in our neighborhood , be cause ii is a very nice ne ighborhood , People have bu ill single family homes ... large si ngle family homes ... that I think would actually increase the • Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 11 propert y value more so than hav ing two smaller ho mes the ' really just don 't fi t in the ne ighborhood . And that is really , you know , kind of from an emot iona l siae because 1. s my neighborho od, but these are my neighbors . Thank you . Mayor Wo odward said than k you . Donna Nelson . an Englewood resident . sa id I had to wnte it down because I get so nervous that I'm not going to be able to say anything straight so I wrote it down . She ss :d good evening and thank you for allowing me to address my concerns regarding Council Bill 65 ton ight. I am of the opinion that th is Bill is not in the best interest of our commun ity and is. in fact. unnecessary . I ,ead the Council Commun ication dated September 15 , 2008 . I note that the Community Development states that the lot dimensions under 16-8-4 are based on historic land platting patterns and long respected community standards . If this is the case , why would we want to create lots that violate long respected commun ity standards ? I spoke with Broo k Bell of Community Development on Friday , October 17th • I asked him how many times Community Development had been approached regarding div iding a lot where the resulting lots would not meet with re quirements . Mr . Bell said that it had come up occasionally over the years . Community Development would have us belie ve that Council Bill 65 would impro ve Englewood by creating additional opportunities for home ownership , creating hous ing opportunities for people in different life stages by allowing for smaller yards and promote a mix of housing opportu nitias . Well , as of Friday, October 17th , there were 400 homes for sale in Englewood according to the MLS . Why do we need to create more lots when this is the case? Joe Jefferson's office , in an e-mail sent to me la st week , claims that Council Bill 65 would stimulate new residential development , create additional land in a land-lo cked City , create more affordable properties and provide City revenues through building permits , use and property taxes . However, Community Development in its Council Communication does not state the number of properties that would be affected by this Bill or how many add itional lots will be created under Counc il Bill 65 . Would Council Bill 65 affect enough lots to actually make a difference in the community? And prov ide the benefits claimed by • Community Development and Joe Jefferson? Would enough new lots t.Je created to significantly increase hous ing opportunities , stimulate development and promote a mix of housing opportunities that are not now available? I don 't th ink so . At least Community De velopment has not provided any information that supports this contention . What they do tell us is that approximately 13% of all existing R-1 properties do not meet dimensional requirements . And 5% of R-1-C propert ies hav e a lot width of less than the required 50 foot min imum . How th is supports their argument for this Bill is unclear to me . but what it does tell me is that the major ity ... 87 % of all propert ies in Englewood and 95 % of all properties in R-1-C do meet the lot width requirement . so that allowing a subdiv ision of land with lots that do not meet these standards will make those propert ies stand out like a sore thumb . I believe we are discussing Council Bill 65 tonight for one reason and one reason only and that is because . Mr . Curn ow has been pushing Commun ity Development , Plann in g and Zoning and this City Council to get his lot divided so that he can build two houses on his lot and make twice the profit . Look ing at the people in attendance tonight , the only person in favor of this Bill that I can see is Mr . Curnow . Whereas 68 people have signed a petition against Council Bill 65 and more than a dozen citizens of Englewood have taken time out of the ir schedules to come here to night to speak to you aod let you know that th ey oppose this Bill . I believe that Council Bill 65 Is unnecessary , unwarranted and unwanted by the citizens of Englewood . Than k you . Ma yo r Wo odwa rd sa id thank yo u. Greg Nahm , an Englewood re si dent , sa id I li ve wi th in view ing of this propert y that you guys are discuss ing tonight and I wil l be short , but I am a member of th e community and it is not a distress ed community by any stretch of the imaginat ion ... very poor word ing . It is an odd community ... because we 've developed our ow n ... it is an actual community . On July 4th we have our own parade , we have our own celebration in the park and we have over 300 people that attend it. Everyone chips in and does their part . We have progressive part ies for Christmas and fo r New Years . Ne ighbors that don 't even know ne ighbors ... know ne ighbors now because of it. Our ne ighborhood is safer because of it. So , it Is a pretty tight group and no one there is against any • development whatsoever, wh ich is evidenced by all the new housing in our ne ighborhood ... but it is all done with in Code . And peopl e ha ve profited handsomely fr om th e de vel opmen t. So, there really hasn 't bee n anti - deve lopm ent unt il th is ... wan ti ng to change th e Code to tak e care ol one pa rtic ular pro perty and , of cour se , no one is really exci ted about that. It just doesn 't mak e sens e for our co mmun ity. Without repeating an yth ing else , Englewood t;lty Council October 20 , 2008 Page 12 I just wanl you to know that our community is very light , we talk , we gather and we are very aware of what lakes place . So , thank you for yourtime and good luck to you . Mayor Woodward said thank you . ,li ll L:. Moore , an Englewood resident, sa id I spoke at the previous hearing where everybody else has said the same thing , but I do have a letter that I would like to read from one of our neighbors who was not able to be here this evening and if I can submit that , I would like to . She sa id lhe letter is from one of our neighbors, Christina Lammermann on South Ogden . Christina Lammermann ... I will give you her qualifi cations . She has been a realtor for 29 years in good standing . She is an expert witness in real-estate zoning matters in Englewood and she is an investor and an income property owner in Englewood . And aga in , one of our great ne ig hbors who actually is in charge of the 4'" of July parade and so on and so forth and also the progressive dinners that take place . I am not going to read th is verbatim, but I do want to make a few points that Chrislina has made thal I am in full blown concurrence of th is . She says she has been a realtor for 29 years in the metro area and she has sold just under a dozen homes within a 6 bloc k radius of the sa id property , which is 2919 Soulh Ogden . She says apparently the owner of 2919 purchased this property with lhe in tent of splitting the lot and building two single family homes . He made the purchase with the currenl applicable zon ing laws prohibitin 11 such a sp iit. • She says I cannot fathom , as a reallor , the thought of either buy ing a property with such a gamble , selling a property for a seller without disclos ing the existing legal limitation s of oevelopment, or representing a buyer in that typ,, of risky purchase . If lhe Unified Development Code and Cor,prehensive Plan have goals and objecti',es of improving the City's housing stock , she says I quest ion tt,e proposed exception , allowing the 5% minor modificat ions to current standards . As a realtor, she says in Hi~hlands Ranch living with a garage is the first and foremost presentat ion of a home . This has fallen completely out of favor. Successful urban planning in places like Lowry, Staplelon , the old Elitch 's site and one of the main thrusts of Denver's Quick Wins Two include front porches and front areas of homes that invl le neighborliness and communication . As a matter of fact, Quick Win s gives bonus square footage allowances for open front porch areas . Ms . Moore sa id just to put • in a little bit of my own . I recently renovated my home. It was a single family home on a single lot I did nol go two stories . I did not dig a 9 foot basement I stayed within my lot limits and I also slayed within the flavor of the ne ighborhood . It is easily manageable . She said Christina also says I don 't think the neighbors and I know the neighbors do not object to the 5% adjustment proposal nor do they object lo development She says as long as the bas ic flavor of the ne igh borhood is preserved . She also goes on to say there is a good deal of adding on and scraping and build ing of new homes in our immediale area , but on full sized lots , with garages in the back or garages to scale . As fa r as I am aware , no protests have been made about any of the new builds or add-ons in the area , wilh lhe exception of said property at 2919 South Ogden Street The last th ing she says , there is an uneasy feeling of a lack of transparency in th is matter . When my husband and I did an add ition affecting only one contiguous neighbor, we had to go through the entire process of putting out a huge wooden nolice sign for several weeks to allow our neighbors to understand whal we were doing and give them ample weeks to allow our ne ighbors to understand . There has been a dearth of communication regarding this proposed development .rd certa in ly no signs or notice s. I heard lhat there was some verbal approval of this developer's plans for two homes and to me lhat just does not soun d right Tasteful infill bu ild ing with garages to lhe rear , as they are in lhe vast majorily of our neighborhood is welcome . If you must pass this amendment, whir.h as you can see that none of us are in that con ti ngent, you musl feel thal ii is going to be for the greater good of our City, nol just lhis one particular property . Again , none of us are in any opposition of development...jusl when it affects our neighborhood , our feel of our neighborhood , and If ii is done upright and forthr ight, with all lhe processes in place and everybody is aware of what is going on nd lhis doe!: not seem to ba the case . I thank you all for allowing me to speak . Mayor Woodward sa id thank you . Kathy Robbins , an Englewood resident , said I live righl next to a subject property that would be affected if th is change to lhe subdivision exception is accepted by the City Counci l. What I would like to bring your attention to however , Is thi s could not be the only one . Wh en I first moved here from Boston , I lived downtown for about 5 yea~. 1/1/l',en I sold my bus iness , I had the opportunity to loo k all over the metro area for where I was go ing to • live and I selected to live in Englewood . I like living in Englewood . I like my neighborhood . I like th e characte r of s,y ne ighborhood . What I don 't like right now about th is process 1s that it isn 't transparent It really fee ls like the se changes are being shoved down people 's throats . And my guess is that if more people in town were • Englewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 13 aware that th is poli cy was being debated , you would have more people here , We found cul about it very much almost after the fact. And we have a serious interest in our ne ighborhood in commenting on th♦~ P.roposa l. One reason that I like Englewood is the various nature; of its ne ighborhoods , and the re are ne ig ~borhoods . Wt.at concJrns me the most about th is potential policy is that there is no exception that is ever go ing lo hold up unless someone proposes building a brothel on a piece of property . "that is about the extent of what wou ldn 't be acceptable . I would like you to cons ider leaving the policy the way it currently reads and let the neighborhoods comm ent on what is best for them , because the neighbors in a neighborhood are what give it, its character. For some R-1-C districts in Englewood , maybe th is policy wouldn 't matter to them ;,nd maybe , given the character of the existing housing stock , it would be the best thing to happen . In other neighborhoods that isn 't the case . II cl early is not the case in our neighborhood , I am right next door to a subject property , 2919 South Ogden , which has been a dump site for the three years that Mr. Curnow has owned the property . There have been scores and dump truck loads of dirt brought on to that property . I have affectively lost the use of part of my home during the summer when there is any wind . I can 't have my windows open , because the piles of dirt are 5 feet from my windows , The re is a lack of policy in Englewood to de al with something like this and I know because I have called the City and was basically told that unless the weeds are within sight of the street, tough luck . You are out of luck, you have to live next to this dump site and you have no recourse , That isn 't the Issue tonight but it does create a fire for me . I would reall y like you to consider leaving the policy the way it currently reads, making no change to the policy , requiring notice of the neighborhood and the neighbors, giving people on opportunity to object or not object if they have a problem with this 5% variance ... which is what it is, it is a variance , And in most localities , variances have to have comment by contiguous neighbors . And , I would like to see the City Council leave the po licy in its current format. Do not change it. Allow the neighborhoods to come to the Plann ing and Zoning Commission , to you if necessary , to ma intain the sense of the ne ighborhoods they live in . Thank you . Mayor Woodward said thank yo u . • Christie McNeil!, an Englewood resident , said I live just one block from the said property . I certainly agree with everybody in tenTis of th e disheartening and discouraging aspect that this process has had for us . We went to the Appeals Board and were heard and I feel that the Community Development was dishonest in terms of the way they represented this issue to you , as the City Council, to the Zoning Commission and Plann ing and I am very grateful that it was caught by Jill and that we are allowed to be here and speak with you today, because now , the issue is not only affecting us , but the whole of Englewood . So , hopefully you see us as just a small portion of what the rest of Englewood would probably feel about this Bill if they knew about it. I feel it is disrespectful to ask the citizens of the neighborhood that we are directly affected by ... and the Appeals Board in particular .. , to put time and energy into hearing the issue . My husband and I have been in the neighborhood for 15 years . We purchased our current property al 2865 South Ogden because of the character of the ne ighborhood and because of the larger lots , where our neighbors didn 't stare into our living room from their living room . That is Denver . I'm also concerned that this is a slippery slope . You give 5% here , what's to say then there is a variance for another 5, and another 5 and another 5 and another 5, it doesn't sound like much right now ... one little 5% but as 't goes farther and farther, the next thing you know, is a lot is made to 2, then to 4, then to 10 ... you know what I mean . And pretty soon we are look ing from our living room into our neighbor's living room and that is not what Englewood has to offer. That is not what most of us enjoy in terms of the quality of ''"ing here . I don 't suppose that is your situation and I know it is not mine . We value our property and our hom. tremendously . We have a beautiful, big 100 foot lot that we share with our neighbors , enjoy with our ne ighbors , our neighbor's kids come over and play in our yards and I would hope that ii would be another fam1iy like mine that would want to have a single fam ily home on that lot and have that space . It is a luxury that we re ally enjoy . My other aspect of this is that our ne ighborhood Is in demand . We are not an edgy , you know , sl ide downhill ne ighborhood , Two properties with in the last month , one block away have had 4 offers in 4 days and have both sold , even in the current economic climate . Therefore , I wou ld like to suggest lo Mr. Curnow that if he is so unhappy with the situation that he sell the lot. If that sounds fl ippant, may I rem ind you that this empty lot is a bus iness propos ition for him , not his home . In contrast , we have had several developers In the area who • have willingly obeyed the current codes and still made a profit ,without ask ing for any special considerations from the City Counc il. Perhaps one of thern wou ld be happy to have ii. Please, leave the Code as it is , II works . If ii ain 't bro ke, don 't fix ii. Thank you , Ma yor Woo dward sa id thank you . Englewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 14 Stephany S;hm idt, an Englewood resident , said I have lived at my address for about 15 years . When I moved in there was a huge book in our kitchen drawer of ail of lhe history of plat development in Englewood . I actually brought it ou ;_ ga ve it to Kathleen at tt .. , start of all these proceedings , because way back into the 1950's, it was whal !he lot sizes were supposed to be . When I mo ved in I had an elderly couple ne xt door to me who co uld tell me who lived in my house, for how long they lived in my house , what color they painted ii and what year lhe green paint was on sal e be cause every other house was pa inted lhe same color . There was laught er . I still have the color in my window sills even !h ough I have changed windows . So , it must have not been pretty al tha t time , I don 't th ink . We , a couple of years ago , went to bu ild a new garage . I have never bu ilt anylh lng on property before , so as a good res ident , I went to the zoning office and said , what are the specs? They gave me a really nice, easy ma p to follow, 3 feet here , 6 feet here . 6 feet off the alley , all of that. I met with my bu ild er . sa id here is the specs for my garage . Came home the day the concrete was poured , I said to my partner , that is so not 6 fee t off the alley and we are in big trouble . I asked the builder, the builder said it passed inspection today so there shouldn 't be a problem . I had no idea what !hat meant , until the garage was fully erected , ii passed final inspection . but it just so happened that same day the zoning person was driving lhrough the alley and sa id, the garage is not 6 feet off the alley . So , you cannot oc cup y ii or it has to move . So, I had to do my due diligence aga in, and find out what I had to do to get a variance in order to keep my garage the same way . So , I went and met with them , th ey said ii is a formality , erect a sign , get your ne ig hbors to sign off that it is okay , make su re you keep the sign up , because if the Appeals Committee drives by and the sign is not up there , you can 't have your hearing . So , on one of the windiest days of the summer , I am literally holding the sign up so that it does nol blow away so that I can have my hear ing , because I don 't want to move my garage . I come to the Appeals Hea ring, one person sa id no to keeping my garage there and the Appeals people said, we have the rules for a re ason , you have to move your garage . I was pissed , I can tell you that. When I left that meeting that day because zoning told me that it was just a formality ... I should get a variance , no problem . And now I have to move my garage . Needless to sa y, that was not a pretty sight when my bu ilder was moving my garage , but it • wa s very interesting and ma ke s for great pictures. I can tell you that I am very happy thal they upheld that • zoning requirement , because the neighbors in back of me are building a fence . And if those ne ighbors weren 't build ing the fenc e, I would be able to get in and out of my garage no problem . But now that they are bu ild ing a fence , I wouldn 't be ab le to use my garage the way my bu ilder put it there . So , two things aboul that issue that I found out. Number one , zon ing and inspections don't communicate . So , when I called !hem , they said not our job , we just inspect . Zoning says inspections are not au , job, we just do lhe zoning . So there obviously needs to be more commun icat io n between some of the offices in the City of Englewood , but I ca r, tell yo u that eve n though I was angry that day , that they did not give me the var iance , it was for the betterment of my garage and my happ iness of liv ing , because to not be able to use tn al ·:,ould ha ve been very sad to me . And so . obviou.ly , rules are on the books for a reason and all of those guys , lon g ago , who made those zon ing requirements abo ut what is good for our City ... they knew what they were do ing . And this is one of those times that we , I don 't thin k, should second gu ess them , but keep ii as it is and not cha nge the zoni ng requirement and keep it as it is . So I respe ctfull y req uest that you not allow for the variance . Thank you . Mayor Woodward sa id thank you . Bill Curnow , a Sedalia resident . sa id I am pleased to be here aga in th is evening . That might come as a surprise after some of th e th ings you ha ve heard thus far this even ing , but as I sa id prev io usly , I have been an owner of propert)' in Englewood since 1981 . I have operated bus inesses , no t just development , bu t bus inesses in Engl ewo,1d since the 1970's. I've been a member of the De velop ment Council in Engle wood . Englewood is somet hing that I really care about and , you know , I th ink what I would like this Council to know is that I'm th e person here who cares about Englewood as much as the se fine citizens over here care about Englewood . When we met two weeks ago , Ms . Wilson suggested that we send a letter oul and Mr . Jefferson asked if th at wouldn't just ig nite the specific situal io n ... 29 19 South Ogden ... and Ms . Wilson ;aid no , it wouldn 't, that we would just tal k in general terms . Well , I th ink we are see ing that in differer.I character this evening . That virtually ev ery co mment thus far tonight has been about the developrran t at 2919 South Ogden . But I think , overall th e iss ue is large r than that particular lot and I !hie :, that the City needs to consider lo t widths in s·.ae ral. • Englewood is not a pla nned co mmu nity . It is not Highlands Ranch as some of the people here have noted . Highla nds Ranch is plalled an d eve ryth ing is preplanned . You , as a City , hav e inheri ted plats of va rious sizes , dimens ions and th ings tha t de fy comm on sense now, but yo u're dea lt the hand and you have to pla y that hand , you have to li'le with what you have . And so if you ha ve thes ~ odd sized lots , lot s that may or may not fit in a • Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 15 ne ighborhood, you have to make them blend in with the entire character of the ne ighborh oo d, wh ich is what these fine folks would like to have . And that is someth ing that I would lik e to have also in Englewood . Englewood derives its ab ility to attract bus inesses to the City by the demograph ics of the ne ighborhoods and the folks who live in the City . Businesses locate here and people spend their money in those businesses , based upon the peoplt who are here and as the homes that are on older lots don 't find a decent market or depreciate in value and don 't go up ... I guess all homes are deprec laling In value if you listen to the government right now ... Englewood is in need of renovating and revital izing Its neighborhoods and I th ink that is what the builders , like myself, do . We come to the City and we consider the realities and the balance that must exist in the City . The Income the people earn is spent within the City and therefore , as you rerovate neighborhoods and bring in newe r homes , the people who occupy these homes typically will spend their inco me here in Englewood and they won 't go elsewhe re and move elsewhere . The fact that there is a resurgence of people who are moving back to the cit ies ... they are moving bac~ to nicer he mes and apartments . Many of them don't want to move to old homes thal are just a several hundred square fo,,t house that were bui lt in the early to mid 1900's. They want to be in new or renovated homes that are nestle,j within the cozy neighbo rhoods that ex ist in Englewood . When you , as the City Council , cons ider the ava ilabilit,1 of the lots in the City , there are any number that may not m6st every single criteria of the current bu ilding and zon ing standards . However, they are here anyway . If there is no fle xi bil ity now , or in the future , to allow you r planning profe :sionals ... the people you hire , the people that you count on to give a consistent good ne ighbort,ood to you to maosge , you 're not allowing any accommodations for renewed growth on some of tho lots that don 't fit, ir; genera l, to the standard building codes . You will poss ibly turn away any construct;on in the ne ighborhood or any revitalization by people who are already owning the home . The chance to invita families with children ... and the retiring ... in to Englewood and the conveniences of this century ... a newe r home and the cozine ss of the City , would be limited by the fact that there are no alternatives on some of these lots . I think someone st•l ed that they had done some research and there is something like 15% of the lots that fall in this category . Th e 6CCnomics of purchasing large lots and putting even larger homes on those defy the cozy nature of Englewood . And , I think that is something that none • of us want to do . To allow a foot or so of variance in the scheme of things may bring on opportunities for the c ;ty , the other homeowners and builders and people that want Englewood to be a nice place with a larger selection of homes that people want to live in . Many of the fol ks here will tell you that the problem is that huge homes are built on small lots . That may be the case. But they can do that now with the existing building codes and standards , that is not an outcome of allowing a foot variance on a lot that is 50 foot wide or someth ing j"st slightly le ss than 50 foot wide . In virtually all the towns and communities in the metro area they already have th is in place as an adm inistrative ,ariance. There is not a single city within the metro area that doesn 't allow a 5% varia nce based upon lot size, nol lot width , but lot siie in general . Make no mista~e . there arc many homes in Englewood for sale loday ... il was noted 400 . I actually checked earlier today , there are 714 houses for sale in Englewood . And it is go ing to take years to whittle that down . There may be some houses that have sold just recently , but I think that's not necessarily the case as we go forwar d. We want to have the best houses ava ilable and attract the best fam ilies here to Englewocd . We need to have renewa! and renovation and by most to enact the guidelines that allow consc ience to the City and to you . Make no mistake , that those who do not want change , because it is perce ived to be adverse , do not have a better er ystal ball than you or your profess ional planners , but ju~t there personal interest at sta ke and what they perceive is someth ing that doesn 't benefit them . The best course of this City is at stake here and I think it is up tc you , as a City Council , to recogn ize that th is is not a terrible idea . Th is is something that Is already ir, place In virtually every city and it doesn 't mean that big houses go on little lots . I am not going to bring th is to the point of 2919 South Ogden , but I want you lo understand that I own other property in this City that I would li ke lo develop and there is other property that I can bring forth and show that th ere is not th is type of dissenti cn on those propert ies . I would be happy to do tha t as the Study Session continues . Thank you . Mayor Woodward said than k you . Kathy Curnow , e Sedalia res ident , sa id I don 't have a lot to add . I simply want lo sa y that I think the integrity , th e character of the ne ighborhood ... thase th ings will not change . They can im prove and I don 't think ... I know • there have been a lot of emotions that have come up over th is part icu lar situation . Th i; is not necessarily what the overall picture Is aimed at , but hous ing can be very nicely fit into the small lots . I think th is could be a very pos itive thing . Thank you . Mayo , Wood ward said than k you . Engle,,ood City Council October 20 , 2008 Paoe 16 l ~atthew Crabtree, an Eng l:.wood res ident , sa id I don 't really have a dog in th is fight , becau se I don 't live on that stree t. Although I have presented before you regarding th is matter before and I don 't really wish to take sides on th is, bu t I think th ere is an inte res ti ng couple little top ics that were brought up in th is. First of all , to quote a couple of members from Ogden Street that we re here , I th ink they hit the nail right on the head ... Jill Mnore and Kathy Robb ins ... transparency problem . And like I stated last time , I don 't want to add any fuel to the fi re here , but the residents on Ogden Stree t...and th is benefits both sides of the matter, actually ... bolh Mr. Curnow and the res idents of Ogden Street. One of these decisions was made during a Study Session and the whole process , kind of I think , went down hill from that point forward . In fact , Ms . Langon had stated last time that one of the dec ision s was made during Study Sess ions . So , I would like to use that as an example at this po int. I'm not tak ing sides on this , bu : I would like to also bring up an instance that occurred about four years ago wit h the 60 foot ord inanc~ in the City . I'm sure you all remember that part icular situation . It was a sim il ar sit uation that ec me forward to Council where you had a very strong oppos ition on both sides , both in favor , I'm sure , and probably more in op,-~sition , I think from my understand ing . I wasn't around then , but... there are a lot of properties in the City that are less tha n 50 feet. When ,n e City was originally plotted around 1890's, all the lots were supposed to be 50 ... actually 25 feet...and divisible through 25 on up to 100 or however much . It is my understanding that the bts are min imized In size because of the changes that the City's made ... to streets ... to whatever ... because they were all , at one point , 25 foot lots . So , that is a concern that I think Council should defin itely consider during tnis process ... and I am sure you all know how many lots are out there , but it's not really the fault of the property owner that their lot is not of proper width . And this could affect , I think , the deve lopment of the City . I don 't know, I'm not taking sides , but I'm just throwing it out there , because I don 't th ink during the 60 foot ordinance that there was anybody there to throw those ideas out. Another thing to cons ider here Is that Community Development really , I th ink , overstepped some of the ir authority with th is and I think there are other situations that they have overstepped the ir authority with this . And , if you repeal this right now , also take Into consideration what happens to the other decisions that Community Development has made • regarding this matter. I mean , this is a pretty serious thing ... revoking what was promised to one ind ividual, how • many other situations has th is decision been made ,hrough Community Development. And understand that If you revoke it for one person you kind of have to revoke it for everybody else in the past. So , those are my considerat ions and concerns with that. Thank you for your time . Mayor Woodward sa id thank you . Mayor Woodward asked if there was anycoe else who wanted to speak during the Public Hearing . There was no one . COUNCIL MEMBER JEFFERSON MOVED , ,;ND CO UNCI L MEMBER McCASLtN SECONDED , TO CLOSE THE CONTINUATION OF A PUBLIC HEARING TO GATHER 4PIJT ON COUNCIL BILL NO , 65 , A PROPOSED AMENDMENT TO THE UNIFIED DEVELOPMENT CODE ESTABLISHl~G AN EXCEPTION TO THE MINIMUM LOT WIDTH AND AREA REQUIREMENTS FOR SUBDIVISION OF F'ROPERTIES IN ALL R-1 ZONE DISTRICTS . Ayes : Cou 0 cil Members Penn , Mccaslin , Moo re, Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson , Oak ley Nays : None Motion carried and the public hearing closed . 11 . Ord inan ces , Resol "<ion and Motions (a) Approva l of Ordir,ances on First Read ing (i) Director Gryglewicz presented a recommendat io n from the Department of Finance and Adm inistrative Serv ices to adopt " bill for an ordinance approving the 2008 Mill Levy for collection in 2009 . He said the General Fund Mill Levy is 5.88 mills and the mill for the General Obligation Bond Debi Service Fund is • 1.947 mills . I included in my Cou llcil Commun ication an estimate of what a property owner with a $200 ,000 .00 house would pay ... $93 .61 to the ,eneral Fund and $31 .00 for Debt Serv ic e ... for a total of $124 .61 . And I wo uld li ke to mention that the Mill Levy for the General Fund has not changed in over 15 yea rs. • Englewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 17 Mayor Woodward as ked if there were an y questions for Frank . There were none . COUNCIL MEMBER McCASLIN MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON SECONDED, TO APPROVE AGENDA ITEM 11 (a) (I) • COUNCIL BILL NO. 57 . COUNCIL BILL NO . 57 , INTRODUCED BY COUNCIL MEMBER McCASLIN A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE FIXIN G THE TAX LEVY IN MILLS UPON EACH DOLLAR OF THE ASSESSED VALUATION OF ALL TAXABLE PROPERTY WITHIN THE CITY OF ENGLEWOOD. COLORADO . Mayor Woodward sa id I would like lo open it up for discussion or comments . Mayor Woodward said I would like to reiterate what l'rank said . On a market value home , of $200 ,000 .00 , in the City of Englewood, the total property taxes that would be paid to the City of Englewood would be $124 .61 . Which I think is quite a value . That is for a full service City that includes Parks and Recreation , Library , Fire Department and all the others that a lot of other cities do not provide . So , I th ink that is a phenomena l number . Mayor Woodward sa id is there anyth ing else . There was nothing . Vote results: Ayes : Council Members Penn , Mccasl in, Moore , Woodward . Jefferson . Wilson , Oakley Nays : None M~tion carried . • (II) Director White presented a recommendation from the Community Development Department lo adopt a bill for an ordinance amending the Unified Development Code perta inin g to flags in the South Broadway Bus iness Improvement District. Staff also requests that Council set a public hearing for November 3, 2008 to gather public testimony on th is Issue . He said the South Broadway Business Improvement District is seeking lo display flags that will advertise their sale date that they are contemplating conducting once a month . The reason this is before you ton ight is that the UDC allows only the display of flag s of nat ions . states or cities . So , the UDC, as currently written does not allow the display of this kind of flag . The proposed ordinance presented to you would authorize any existing or future City approved Business Improvement District to display a flag ... and the flag that would be allowed to be displayed would be allowed to contain the name of the Bus iness Dis trict , any logo or emblem of that District. As with other flags under the UDC , no permit or reviev: by the City would be required and the flags would be allowed to be 15 square feet in size . The Planning Commiss ion did conduct a hearing on this proposed Code amendment on September 16, 2008 , they did recommend approval with one change . And that was to the first sentence of 16-6-13 (E) 3 (b) stat ing that the flags shall display only the name , emblem and/or logo of the organization and no individual bus iness names . The proposed draft ordinance , that you have in your packet , does contain those changes . As we were putting together the draft ord inance and getting the Council Commun ication together , we did receive , finally , an Indicatio n of what the flags that the BID wanted to use would be and that image is inc luded in your packet. Unfortunately , as written , the Sign Code modification would not permit those type of signs because the y include words like ·sale today ' or ·sale· and that allowance was not written into the Code . So , in order to allow, specifically . these types of flags presented by the BID , you would need to make an amendment to the ord inance. One last thing ... a Publ ic Hearing is required for this because ii is an amendment to Chapter 16 of the Englewood Mun icipal Code . With that I will conclude my presentation and answer any questions you may have . Mayor Woodward as ked if there were any questions . • [Cle rk's note : Throughout th is disc uss ion regarding Council Bill No . 69 , several Coun cil Members were speaking at the same time . We have made every effort to transcribe as much as possible J Counc il Member Mccaslin sa id ... just to clarify ... these flags , would they ha ve lo be approved by the City or City Council before the y would ... or is that al the discretion of th e BID ? Director White sa id ii would . essentially , be at Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 18 the discretion of the BID . They would be treated as an y oth er flag of the nation or the City. The y co uld be displa yed with ou t any further approval or any perm it. Coun ci l Member Mccas li n said so there is no department as far as ... I mean ... I don 't know ... I ha ve a hard lime ... maybe it's nol the time for discuss ion . Director Wh ile sa id as written , lhere is no requ ire ment fo r any review . Council Member Mccaslin sa id no Cily approval. Mr. While said tha t is correct. Council Member Penn sa id as written , is there a requ irement on time limit on how long the flags can stay up ? Mr. Wh ite said no there isn't. Council Membe r Jefferson said I th ink it does say lha t...doesn 't it sa y lhat the flags can only conta in the BID logo and lettering of some sort , with some sort of message? I th ink it does limi t... Counc il Member Mccasl in sai d It did kind of say tha t. Mr . Jefferson sa id it does limit the scope of wh at they can be ... a little bit. Mr. Mccaslin said a logo and it will not advertise specific bus inesses . Council Member Wi lso n sa id and also they wanted this for one day a month , which is the last Saturday of the month to ad vertise their sale day . Mayor Woodward sa id we are at the point of dire ct ing ques ti ons to Alan right now. We are not in discussion mod e yet... there hasn 't been a motion . So jus t on the actual staff information .. I see in the very last paragraph , in look ing at the flag ... it is not permitted . Wha t they have proposed to you is not perm itted . And from what I understand , incl usion of these words on the flag ... which is ·sale today" ... would requ ire another hearing on a revised ordinance , by the Plann ing and Zon ing Comm iss ion . Has the BID been made aware of this? Mr. Wh ite • sa id yes . Mayor Woodward said did they have a response? Mr. White not a real response . I mentioned the • option that the Counc il might have to amend the ord inance ... to allow these types of flags with the "sale day" or "sale tod ay" lettering on it. .. to move forward . I made no guarantees that that would happen . I did not inform them that th is may have to go back to the Pla nn ing Commission . I th ink that would be at your direction .,• if you want the Plann ing Comm iss ion to do more work on this . Mayor Woodward sa id I bel ieve what I am hearing you say is that , in order for th is to go back to Plann ing and Zon ing , it would be at our direction or we could say th is language that is on here is okay, but only th is language ... or someth ing to that effect? Director White said that is my und erstan ding ... yes . Mr . Woodward said okay . Mayor Wood ward asked if there we re an y ,ther qu estion s for Alan . Counci l Member Mccaslin sa id yes . Has it been ~tklressed if... becau se I know not everyone is go ing to get it. .. if someone has a flag up th ere advertising som cc ~.c g else or it sa ys someth ing else ... who is to enforce that ? Who would be the pers on to say ... you know we sa ! fll D log o and lettering ... who would enforce that? Dire ctor White sa id the staff in my Departm ent would work v, ih tne Code Enforce ment folks , in the Pol ice Department. If I may go bac k lo Jill 's qu es tion or comment. We are try ing lo broaden the authority that was being established in this ordin an ce . And not pick ing a specific instance fo r the BID , thinking forward a little bit... that lhere mig ht be other eve nts , other than lhe ir sale day ... lhey mighl have so me holiday event. .. during lhe week of lhe 4'" of Jul y. So . we weren 't try ing lo write the ord inan ce specifica ll y for their proposed sale day . And specifically not fo r the ex istin g BID. There could be three . four ... or a ha lf dozen more Bl D's organ ized in lhe City in lhe future . So , we don 't have to come bac k and amend th is every time there is something just a little bit differen t than what they are spe cifically asking for righ t now. Ms . Wilson sa id okay , thank you . Mr. Wh ite sa id you 're we lcome . Mayor Wood ward asked if there was any other questions . There was none . COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON MOVED , AND COUNCIL MEMBER JEFFERSON SECONDED, TO APPROVE • AGENDA ITEM 11 (a) (II) • COUNCIL BILL NO . 69 . CO UN CIL BILL NO . 69 . INTRODUCED BY COUNCIL MEMBER WI LSON • Englewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 19 A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING THE ENGLE WOOD MUNICIPAL CODE 2000 BY AMENDING TITLE 16-6-13, SIGNS NOT SUBJECT TO PERMITS , TO ALLOW DISPLAY OF A FLAG USED EXCLUSIVELY BY THE SOUTH BROADWAY ENGLEWOOD BUSINESS IMPROVEMENT DISTRICT MEMBERS . Mayor Woodward asked if there was any d' ·uss ion . Council Member Wilson sa id, as we are go in g to ha v•a a Publ ic Hearing , so are we go ing to move for when that will be scheduled? City Attorney Brotzman said yes, you need to do that. You can either do it as one motion or you can break it into two parts . Ms . Wil son said I will brea k it inlo two . COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER JEFFERSON SECONDED, TO SET A PUBLIC HEARING FOR NOVEMBER 3, 2008 ON COUNCIL BILL NO . 69 . So , Council Membe r Oakley said , we have two mot ions before us , with no discussion in between? Ms Wilson sa id I need to make two of them into one . City Attomey Brotzman said one of the reasons you do that is if you want to mod ify the first motion , which Is you want to somehow change what the nag looks like ... you would be voting on that one first ... you will then vote on having the Public Hearing . Under any circumstance you will need to have a Public Hearing . Council Member Oakley said okay ... we are talking about two ... we 'II vote , obviously , separately on the two . So when do I talk? Ms . Wilson said now. So , Mayor Woodward said , we are going to discuss motion number one and please feel free to talk Wayne . • Council Member Oakley said I am confused . I thought it was pretty straight forward that th.I nag was go ing to say ·sale day· and have a logo ... and that was what it was going to be . If they can put anything on there they want to ... then I want to take another look at It. • City Attorney Brotzman said no ... it is actually less than that. Mr. Oakley said oh . Mr. Brotzman said it is more restrictive . What you are going to get is ... you have an American nag , a c;olorado nag , and an Englewood flag .... or you could have ... in th is circumstance ... a BID nag . You may not have a BID flag that says ·sale". You may only have the BID nag . II Is ac"ually more restrictive . What the BID is not getting is their proposal to have ·sale" on their nag . Council Member Oakley sa io I gues, I just nippantly consid N ed them both as be ing the same . Council Member Jefferson said I'm sorry ... could you expla .. , that distinct io n one more time . City Attorney Brotzman said you can have the BID logo on the nag . You may not have an indivi dual bus iness name . It can 't be Kaufmann 's on the flag . Mr. Jefferson sa id sure . Mr. Brotzman said on the BID nag it ~as the big logo ... part of the logo cannot be "sale day". Mr . Jefferson said okay . So , it's say ing that the only thing that can be on the nag is a logo . Mr. Brotzman said there you go . Mr . Jefferson sa id okay . Council Member Wilson said but... Mr. Jefferson sa id but that Is not what they want. Mr . Brotzman sa id correct. Mayor Woodward sa id that is not what they want and ... City Attorney Brotzman said or what they proposed . Mr. Woodward sa id ... or what they proposed . But they didn 't propose this at the Publ ic Hearing at P & Z . Nobody showed up . And that is where I th ink the problem has come in. I think the intention was to have a flag that sa id "sale day". That is the last Saturday of the month ... that is Iha intention . Council Member Wilson sa id right. Council Member Oa~ley said that is my understand ing . Mayor Woodward sa id it has been my unde rstand ing from day one . So , Council Member Wilson sa id, what process do we ... Coun cil Member Penn said would it be an easier proce ss if they ha d the approva l of the Council before they made flags up for whatever events they might wan t...su ch as a 4th of Ju ly nag or a holiday nag ? Englewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 20 But , Council Member Wilson said , are th ere go ing to be certain restric tions or guidel ines or app ro vals? Council Member Penn sa id that we don't know yet. Mayor Woodward said , as I recall , there intentio n was , only , for the Friday and it was for the last Saturday of the month sale only , And I believe .. , what I think I heard Alan say ... and just to verify with Dan ... that we could change that to accept this layout... "sale today· with the logo .. , and I assume that is their logo ,,. as the flag , without any other lettering or anything and it wouldn't have to go back lo P& Z. We could have a Public Hearing on November 3~ and move forward from there . Would that be correct? City Attorney Brotzman said corre ct. Again , the minutes of the P & Z meeting are in your packet. Their design was to try and include an extra flag ... their intent was not to address the BID 's request. Their intent was to work on the Sign Code , including flags , One of the things they ta,ked about was not doing ·sale " flags throughout the entire City , They also didn't want to permit ·sale" flags for part of the City and not the rest of the City . I think that is why you are seeing ... their proposal is a BID flag , not a ·sale" flag and it is for any Business District that forms throughout the City. So , what they did is they stepped away from the BID's proposal and they addressed flags throughout Englewood . Council Member Wilson said can we just address the one flag .. , BID? City Attorne y bVotzman said yes you can ,,, yes you can , but that's a political decision regarding all of your other business eu , ,.;tituents , Mayor Woodward said , now .. Council Member Wilson said I guess my feeling is that this is a certain group ... it is not to say that other Districts would not be allowed to use it or have it... but they have come forward . And this is a business group that is giving back to the community , I mean ... it is just not a business out there having a sale . So , Council Member Mccasli n said, can I clarify something? So if I own a business on the south end of Broadway , I could not put ,,ut a "sale today· sign like I see down at...Council Member Wilson said right. Council Member Penn said we would have to have another Public Hearing for that sign or for that flag? City Attorney Brotzman said as currently proposed ... it does not permit any "sale " signs . It permits Business District signs , Council Member Mccaslin said , so if you are not in the BID you are not permitted to have a flag? City Attorney Brotzman said correct. Council Member Mccaslin so you would have to ... well you can't join BID right? You would have to start your own , City Attorney Brotzman said correct. Council Member Wilson said you could start your own . And, Council Member Oakley said, BID cannot have a flag that says "sale " on it. Right ? City Attorney Brotzman said as currently proposed . Mr. Oakley said okay , So , in other words , what we have before us is not what originally started out as our original intent. Council Member Wilson said so how do we get there ? Council Member Jefferson said can I ask one more quick question ... and I think it may help us a little bit. So then is that just saying that the BID approved flag is approved? The one that they approved to be the ir official flag . I mean , I didn 't understand ... is that correct? City Attorney Brotzman said correct. Mr. Jefferson said okay . • • So , then that would allow them a lot of flexibility , if we want to give them that flexibility to allow for the flag of • their choice . • Englewood City Council Octobe r 20 , 2008 Page 21 Mayor Woodward sa id you mean the flag that they ha ve subm itted ? And , Counc il Member Jefferson sa id, th ey could mod ify it at a future date if we were to allow just a BID approved flag , because it would be at the ir discret ion to appro ve whatever flag they cho se . Council Member Oakley sa id I have two th ings here . We are not address ing what we thought we were and if we do , then I'm not sure I want to give them carte blan che , Council Member Jefferson sa id I hear you . But , Mr., Oakley sa id, we have to de cide something here , Coun cil Member Jefferson sa id sure ... I'm just confused as to wh at issue did we th ink we were going to resolve ? Council Member Wil son said I th ink we thought we we re going to reso lve ... at leas t in my mind ... havin~ a ·sale " sign . And I guess we can approve that. I agree with Wayne , I mean I understand they may want a 4 of July flag and Chr istmas flag and all that... but, I'm a litt le concerned doing that , without some rest riction s or some gu idel ines or someth ing , But I understand the ·sa le" flag and then we have to have a Publ ic Hearing . Council Memb-Jeffe rson said if they did put up a flag ... let 's say in the future we gave them .. ,whatever flag you guys approve ... and then at some po int they put up a flag and we don 't like that flag , Then we could go back and amend it right and say only the x, y, z type flag? City Attorney Brotzm an sa id yes , Wh ich goes back to ... to amend Title 16 in the future , you would have to have another Public Hearing before Planning and Zon ing . Mr. Jefferson said I see . In order to make that change we would ha ve to have another Hea ri ng , Coun ci l Member Mccaslin said why would we want to give direc tion now , if we are going to talk abou t flags ab-out holidays and other events ... in stead of saying well we can 't do it now and then we will address the other issues later on . Why not , if we are going to address it , address ii right now ,,, instead of hav in g them keep coming bac k and say ing okay ... now we want th is for th is event and now we want th is for this event? • Council Member Jefferson said I guess my persona l opinion is that it is not that big of a deal. I mean we wa nt the BID to be able to advert ise and br ing In more sales for us , They are not going to do anything th ait is not aesthetically pleasing to the bus inesses . But , that it is j ust my personal opinion . And I understand the idea that we don 't wanl to let them just do anything they want to do. I guess my po int is, let's give them an opportunity to be fle xi ble . I th ink they were already sort of frustrated at the speed .. , I th ink that is an expectation th ing . But I th ink they are already somewhat fru strated with the process and I'm just thin ki ng let's just let them advert ise the ir businesses . Council Member Mccaslin said do we have ?' . ..ther issu es In the City concerning the Sign CO'l es . mural codes? Coun cil Member Jefferson sa id sure, I hea r yo u. So , Mr. McCa;lin said . we r " a can of worms . Council Member Jefferson sa id I th ink the compromise is ap prov ing wl : is showing here ... what is depicted here. Is that the option ? City Attorney Brotzma n sa id yes . Anc· the qu e,;tio n P & Z was try ing to wrestle with ... the questions you are talk ing abou t. .. is it just fo r the Blu t~at you are ta lking abo ut wanting to expand "sale· signs or throughout the City , so any business could have a · ~ale · flag . Council Membe r Mccaslin sa id I agree with you Dan . Just because it is the BID 's idea ... if I was a bu siness owner and I saw certa in parts of town could do it and I couldn 't do it...l'd be ... because I didn 't want it...either to start my own BID or I was just sta rting a business and I wan ted to advertise a sale today ... I mean it is unfa ir. Co uncil Member Jefferson said I ag re e with you . I for allowing ·sale " sig ns throughout the City ... personally . Coun cil Member Moore sa id I will take on e shot at comp romise . Is th ere anyway we ca n move th is to th e Publ ic Hea ri ng ? Or rather than sitting here and trying to resolve all these ... is there a bette r way we can pass this tonig ht and frame it, to help get out of the Public He arin g, what we need ? And I don 't kn ow if tha t just means pass it as is or if we need to take another ster now Iha better positions it, bu t... Coun cil Member Wilson sa id • hear what the public has to say . Mr. Mo ore sa id yes . Bu t, again, I th ink the better we do about going ir.to it stat ing our niajor conce rn s ... it would invite more directed co mment from the pub li c. Co unc il Membe r Mccaslin said can I as k you a quest ion ? Beca •,se in the Publ ic Hearing we will get a lot of the BID peop le ... most of the BID people . The others ma y no t even show up . So , it is going lo be directed ma inl y Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 22 from BID and I don 't think the other ow ners , or the other business owners are going to have that input. So , we are go ing to give direc tio n to say ... yes we wan t it.. I would hope they would be open to opening it up to the whole City . And I don 't think we are going to get a fair share of all the businesses in Engle wood and that is my only concern John . But I agree with you ... l agree with a 100%. Counc il Member Jefferson said just a point of referP.nce ... I don 't th ink the BID would be opposed to allowing signage everywhere else in the City . Council Mem ber Mccaslin said okay ... right. Mr . Jefferson said I think what is on the ir agenda ... is let's get signs in our ... Mayor Woodward said I think that camo from P & z didn 't it? Isn 't that were that concern came from . But , Council Member Jefferson said , Bob brings up another point .. of fairness to the rest of the community . Council Member Mccaslin sa id I just want to make sure . Mayor Woodward sa id as I recall the BID had two items they were looking for. One was the flag to say "sale today " and that date ... the day of the sale was the last Saturday of the month . Can we approve this layout for the flag for the last day of the month . And that is it. Council Mer.iber Jefferson said I would be okay with that. Mayor Woodward said and then move forward to the Public Hea ri ng to get public input and to try to more fully understand this . Counc il Member Mccaslin said my question is , does that still just limit the BID? So , if I own property up south and I want to do the same thing ... I want a sale on the last Saturday of the month ... I cannot do it. Is that what you are telling me? Well, Council Member Wilson said, you can't hang the BID sign . • Council Member Jefferson said you co uldn 't hang a ·sale " sign at all . The only other option would be the flags . • Council Member Mccaslin said what I am saying is ... I agree with Jim, I think this would be good, but.. Mayor Woodward said ii means that they wouldn 't be able to because they do not have this logo piece right here ... which is the BID logo . So , to expand that area to another ... to the south end of Broadway or something ... would be to revise ii further . Council Member Jefferson said I think we are bringing in ... Bob , your issue ... l think it is just a ,otally separate issue . If we want to loo~ at flags elsewhere ... I would be more than happy to review it. Mayor Woodward sa id John? Council Member Moore said I just want to ask a question . It 's kind of funny ... I find myself feeling a little uncomfortahle when I'm talking about a sale today ... I'm going to call ii... banner ... when it's be ing placed in a category that includes only the U.S. flag and the State flag and the City flag . So , that is one question I have is ... is there not a banner category that might be ... ? If we move away from ... this is ... and I can understand ... maybe that it part of the po int here ... the BID 's offici al flag and all owi ng that in the BID Distri ct.. Are we setting ourselve s up here that we have these flags and a "sa le" flag ? I'm exaggerating, but ii is just kin d of odd that this is in th e flag categr-y, unless that is just where banners go . Director While said I might need some help from Tric ia ... but.. Council Member Moore said I would also be happy stating that as ... that's what I would like to hear about at the Public Hear ing ... unless we want to try to resol ve that. Council Member Oakle y said good point John . Is , in fact , this classified as a banner or a flag ? Mr . Moore sa id right. Council Member Oakle y said if we could distinguish that , then we can come up with some kind of a vote . I'm • like John , I don 't want to put it in the ca tegory with th e flag . • Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 23 Director Wh ite said these were desc ribe d. in numerous meetings as BID logo flags , to be displayed on a pole . standing out from a building as any other flags would be . Bus inesses can , if they are do ing a sale anywhere else in the City ... we do ha ve regulations that allow them to display temporary signs for those types of events . There is some limitat io ns on the durat ion , etc. Banners are different tha n flags ... they are defined differently . Council Member Oakley said pennant? What are we look in g for? Council Member Jefferson said call it whatever you want... really . Council Member Wilson said cloth sign . They have it under sign and flag ... the Sign Code and flag . Dire ctor White said we can write th is very narrowly to allow just the disp lay of the BID flag ... one da y a month ... and it can contain words to the effect of ·sale today " or ·sale day". And define it very narrowly . I was just trying to not have to do th is aga in ... Council Member Wil son sa id can you try to find a different word for flag? Council Member Mccaslin said yes . Director Whi te continued .... when they want to do their July 4~ sale ... and they ha ve to go through a three month process to approve that flag . Council Member Jefferson said exactly . I appreciate you bringing that up . That's what I was trying to say . Allowing some flexibil ity , I don 't thin k ... is a terrible thing . Mayor Woodward said part of the flex ibility , I think ... and Wayne you can probably correct me if I an wrong here ... but at one time there were problems with numerous sidewalk sales and people having their own sidewal k sales and things like that. That I can see ... could get us into problems ... where all of sudden somebody says ... well now I'm going to have my own sale day today . Council Member Jefferson sa id a qu ick question . You are saying that ·sale " signs are allowed for a short duration throughout the City . Is that correct? Director White said yes . And , Mr. Jefferson said , I am just ha vin g • trouble disti nguishing why they need this ordinance then ... if they can have a ·sale" sign during the ir sale day . Director White said they wanted to display this special flag , that is unique to the BID , that contains their logo on this one day a month . And , Council Member Jefferson said , that wouldn 't be allowed? Director White sa id it is not allowed . Mr . Jefferson sa id much like a ·sale" sign would be allowed . Council Member Jefferson said I guess I am just having trouble distinguishing what we would call a "sale" flag and what wouldn 't be allowed as a BID sign . Does that make ser,se? Director Wh ite sa id I think so , I will try to answer that. Mr. Jefferson said thanks . Director White said this flag would be displayed on a pole extending from the building , the face of the building . You can 't do that with a ·sale " sign . Mr. Jefferson said I see . So , if they just wanted to hang it up like a poster or something , that would be okay? Mr . Wh ite said in their window ... they could do tha t... with a permit. Mr. Jefferson said okay . I see . Council Member Oakley sa id okay . Mr. Jefferson sa id it is really the manner that they are trying to display th is item . That is what makes it maybe seem more lik e a flag . Mayor Woodward sa id Alan j ust sa id somml>ing and I did n't hear what that end part was . Director White sa id ... with a perm it. Mr. Woodward said wi'.11 a perm it the / can hang it in the ir window. Mr. Jefferson said I didn 't catch that. Okay , thank you . Council Member Jefferson said ... wlth that being said ... if we do have some concerns about fle xi bil ity ... I th ink, Jim ... the process you pointed out...maybe j ust approv ;ng what's showi ng here ... if everybody is okay with what is show ing he re ... to move fo rward with that. Council Member Oakley said to me ... John made the point that I want to dwell on . I want to know exactly what it says about a flag ... as we see it...can be dis played now . Director White said yes . Mr. Oakley said what...an American flag and a State flag? And, Mr. Wh ite said , a City flag . Mr . Oakley sa id a what? Mr. White sa id and a • City flag . Mr. Oakley sa id ar,,j a City flag ... that is the only t' ree? Director Wh ite sa id yes . Counci l Member Oakley sa id I want to leave that exactly as it is and find another word for an adve rtising flag for a BID . Cou ncil Member Jefferson said fa ir enough . Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 24 So , Council Member Wilson said, we ha ve to find another wo rd for flag . Mr . Jefferson sa id hung banner. .. what about that ? Mr. Oakley said whatever ii is , I don 't want to confuse the two . Mr. Jeffer son said I hear you , I hear yo u. Cou nc il Memb er Moore said and also, just to be cle o•, wh at we have in front of us has no time lim itat ion on ii. Correct ? Director Wh ite sa il1 correct. So , Mr . Moore , aid, I'm hearing ... not onl y Council requ esti ng , but the BID requesting speci fic ity to the lime lim its . So , we need tc structure something ... whatever we call th is thing .. it is go ing iJ have a time limitation different than the City 's 'lag and the State 's flag , etc . So , maybe that is tl!P. cha llen ge. Can we j ust figure out how to narrowly address what we want to do ... whatever that is , Council Me mbe r Oakley said okay ... the onl r way we can do that is either to withdraw the first two motions . 1\nd I would make a motion that w1 leave the word ing of the flag to those three flags . And if we vote on that. "1e11 we can come up with a motion on what you want to do from there on , But that way we get the flag thing out of the way . City Attorney Brotzman said ... do me one favor .. , flip to the last page under flags . And I understand your point and I think they did too , They being Planning and Zoning . Because if you look at 3 (a) that Is the flag of nations . That is the U.S. flag, that is the State flag , that is the City flag , They then created this new category ... flags of City-approved Bus iness Improvement Districts . So , they created a special category ... they actually separated out th is type of flag fr om the flag of nations . I think they are trying to do what you are askmg ... wh ich is ... don 't lump th is in with our U.S. and State flag . So , Council Member Moore sa id, let's put 3 back into the form that it was ... create a number 4 ... and number 4 will desc ribe what we are trying to do . It will specify what this thing is or what it is lim ited to and the timeframes to go with ii. That would be a permissible construction and that would leave it completely independent of the • flag iss ue . I'm thinking that would work , • Council Member Jefferson said that is bas ica lly what they have done ... except they didn 't add the time limit. Is that correct? City Attorney Brotzman right. You could do it as (b) and still call it a flag , because I th ink tha t's .. Council Member Moore said I th ink Wayne and I are trying to get away from flag ... period . Mr. Brotzman sa id okay, Counc il Member Oakley said right , that is what I am still trying to do . Council Member Mcore sa id given that th is is so specific , we can just state what we are do ing , Council Member Jefferson sa id like you said ... it can be number 4, Instead of being (b) ... it can just be number 4 ... flags of City-approved Business Improvement Districts . Council Member Wilson said we can 't call it a flag , Mr. Jefferson said oh ... banner of City -approved business improvement districts . Or whatever word we choose . Does that make sens e what I just sa id? Anybody? Council Member Oakley said most of us th ink of a banner as someth ing long .. Ms . Wilson sa,d and across . Mi. Oakley sa id ... and across ... but if it were called a banner and then the dimensions were given ... even down to toe .... l guess this is getting a little ridiculous though .. even if we sa id what the size would be and the type of pol e ,t could be hung on ... it would look like a flag , but it wouldn't be a flag . I guess that is maybe a little ridiculous . I don 't know, Counci: Memb er Mccasl in said my question is ... if I have a store south ... like near Bellev ie w .. , because I don 't und~rstand this ... and be cause I want to take advantage of this thing on Broadway on a Saturday , just like BID would ... if I put a sign up there that says "sale today· and I am not part of the BID ... I can 't do it? Well , Counc il Member Wi lson said, you couldn't put the sign up an yway .. , because you could only put a sale ... I mean you co uldn 't put a flag type th ing up . Mr. Mccaslin said okay . But as a single bus iness owner , I have to go ou t and try to create my own Bu si nes s District... wh ich I wish I was part of the BID , but I don 't understand , I think we are just limitin g one part of the City and lnat is it...excluding or whatever, It really bo th ers me , It really bothers me , Council Member Mo.Jre said, if I may Bob ... l agree ... that is one way to characterize this ... but the characterization from the other side would be .. , we have to be very caut ious about what we permit and we are • givi ng the BID added fle xi bil ity and some of that fle xi bility comes because they are a group of ind ivi duals that have formed ... il is not just an individual , it is a group ... lhal have gotten tog ether with a purpose that the City understands , subjected themsel ves to additional ta xes to serve that goal and so the othe r view would be the y get a litt le more lati tud e bec au se of the process they have gone throug h to form themselves . That would be the Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 25 • way to balan ce tho se two views . But you are ab solutely right. We could be broaden ing this ... but then instantly I get too concerned about los ing too much control over what happens . Council Member Mccaslin said here is what I don 't understand . We want to generate revenue ... sales revenue ... why wouldn 't we do it throughout the wh ol e City ... you know Federal and Belleview ... South Broadway ... the Swed i:-h business district? Why wouldn 't we want all the areas , instead of just the BID area? Council Member Wilsc ,, .~;d BID is the one who came to us . Mr . Mccaslin said I understand that. But as a business owner, If I find ~ really neat property up on South Broadway and I don't have the opportunity to join it or start my own , then yo u are limiting my abil ity to put out a ·sale " sign . I think that is wrong . We talk about cons titutior ,a!ity .I th ink that is wrong . Council Membe1 ~.~o r.,on said I hear you ... and the only thing they are limited to ... and this is what Alan was po!nting ou t... wos ye" uld still have a "sale " sign in the window . The only thing you couldn 't hang would be whut is pictured he re i'<ight? City Attorney Brotzman sald ... and going back to what Planning and Zoning recommended to you ... not this piece ... but the end of Alan's memo said they would like to discuss 'sale" signs ... lt is a different part of the Code ... and I assume they are going to talk about applying it to all of the City , rather than the flag ... they just saw it very differently and they are saying they are not opposed to making recommendations about 'sale' signs or limiting it to sidewal k sale days or any of that , but they are saying that is a diffe rent section of the Code ... of the UDC ... a"d they would like the opportunity to make a recommendation to you ... if you are talking about general "s.slv" ,tg n: • . 'Y would li~e an opportunity to make a recommendation . What their proposal was ... we are envisr ur 'n y '.)>e :Jlr• wants to hang these banners ... not what BID requested ... but all the time . So you c,s,J1, 1e-:ve ,-,u, ilag out all the time . Council Member Oakley said maybe this wo .-!d help you Bob ... I agree with you ... the 4800 block is just as important to us as the 3400 block . Mr. Mccaslin said absolutely . But , Mr. O,,kley said , a flag by itself in the • 4800 block , on one business Is not going to 1raw anywhere near the attentio 11 as flags in the 3300 and 3400 L•!'.:"-~ ~., every BID business. So , even thougr, In theory we want to give th e,n the same opportu r.ity , they are not going to get it. But, Mr. Mccaslin said , here 's my point. So , everybody knows , after you start doing th is ... everybody knows that every last Saturday of every month Englewood has salr,s . Because that is what we are limiting them to ... or holidays . So , why can 't I, as a business owner on Scutt, Broadway put a sign up and say I have a sale today too . I just don 't undo.:-:tand it. K-Mart ... w9 allow K-Mart to do advert isements every day . I mean ... why are we limiting the peop ia that are not part of the Bus iness District... why can 't they have the same opportunities ? Council Member Oakley said I guess the answer is slmply ... because the y are organ ized . And that's maybe not a good reason . Mr. McC3siin said I'm an owner coming on ... with a spec ialty shop and I'm not organ ized with anyone else , I'm doing my own th ing ... I don 't know . I have a real problem with this . I always have had with BID , just isolating the ir little area and forgetting the rest of Englewood . Council Member Moore said P & Z has a pretty fa ir comprom ise in front of us ... wh ich is ... Forget the sale , because of the discontinuity that creates , and let th em recognize their organ ization . Mr. Mccaslin said now ... l agree with that. So . Mr . Moore sa id, that is why the BID llag ... nothing but the logo and the identification of the BID ... has appeal to it...they might accomplish their goal if they pick a color that stands out and they all agree ... put your fla gs up on Saturday ... they will end up sending that message without creating these other issues . So , I really lhink P & Z's proposal has some very interesting merit. Council Member Oakley sa id the flags ... not flag s ... whatever ... will have to be put up in mass . before they will do an) good . Counc r' Member Moore said actually I think flag becomes an appropriate term ... when we take "sale" off .. because , just lik e we have the City 's flag ... this is the flag of that organ ization . Once you start using it to advertise a sale you ... Mr . Oakley said that is the point...and I th ink that is what BID wants . They want that on there . Council Member Moore said well , right... so , maybe we can 't go that far . Alan had someth in g to add . • Director Wh it e said in all fairness the Plann ing and Zoning Comm ission did not see this . We only got this last week . This is the first time that we saw an image of what the BID wanted to display. As I sa id, and I'll stress again ... it was talked about in various meetin ~, as a logo flaq . To me that means a flag with just the logo on it and no other letterin g. Counc il Member Moore said that is not Counci l's memory . Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 26 Coun cil Member Jefferson (aid I think the ir idea .. Council Member Oakley said I don 't know what th ey would accompl ish . Council Member Moore said imag ine going down Broadway and seeing two doz,n yellow fiags across th ese businesses . It would catch your eye . If it was tasteful and it 's the logo ... thal area pulling together and sa ying we have a unified idr:•1i ;ty . So , it would accompl ish someth ing . Counc il Membar Q ,,:oy sai d it would ... it would accompl ish that downtown Englewood has yel low fiags all the way down on botr. .,de s ... bct it doesn 't tell people that there is a sale . Council Member Jefferson said I agree . Council Member W.-:Casli n sJid you are exactly right. Council Member J ·l'ers~n sd id I think that is why they have kind of evolved the ir idea to include those words . Council Member 1',oo,, sa iQ right , maybe that is it. Mr. Jefferson said I'm protty sure that is it , because I think they die initially envision ... it was described to me exactly the same way ... it is only a logo fiag and this is the first time I have seen the words "sale today" involved . Bu t it makes a whole lot more sense ... just like Wayne pointed out. Council Member Mcore said I am going to try this one more time . Can we get ourselves to the Publ ic Hearing with just a statement :hat Council is som ewhere in between these ideas ... or we are wrestling with these ldeas ... and defer the rest of this until we have fresher minoJ and we have more input? Council Member Wilson said okay ... I just don 't want the •~•~ ... the sale thing to go out the window . I mean I support the BID in wanting that. Council Member Jefferson said as do I. I mean whatever we can do to help mark these businesses in a coo rd in?ted manner is .. Council Member Moore said all right. Let me ask a procedural que stion . If we pass the ordinance as presented to us ... let's just assume that what we do tonight is pass the ordinance as presented to us ... and at the end of the day we fully decide ... not todo:1, that next da y ... we fully decide we want "sale " flags ... after we get to that PJbl ic Hearing and we go to make those changes ... how much does that reset the process? City Attorney Brotzman said there will be one more reading . Mr . Moore said one more reading , but not another Publ ic Hearing? Mr. Brotzman said no , not anot her Public Hearing , just one more reading . ,'.ouncil Member Moore sa id then if we gamble d and we could try to define that tonight and possibly cut out that second hearing , but I don 't have the energy for it. I'd like to say let's vote on wh at 's here , go to Publ ic Hearing and be prepared to make those adjustments after the Public Heoring . Mayor Woodward said let me ask Dan ... is there an exparte th ing with t,•lking to anybody from the BID regard ·ng th is? City Attorney Brotzman said you can have staff talk to them .... you ,certainly want the BID to come and talk to everybody . Mr. Woodward said yes , absolutely . Mr. Brotzman said can two of you talk to somebody from the BID ... yes ... but you are going to get multiple answers ... ! think you want them to show up at the Public Hearing and say this h; what we really want. Mayor Woodward said absolutely . I would have liked th em to show up at P & z. Council Member Jefferson said I'm sorry ... I just got totally confused . So , what is in front of us now is allowing for the BID approved fiag ... whatever that may be ... in any manner that they may choose? Council Member Moore sa id we ll. .. lo be clear ... it won 't have anything like ·sale " on it , because the language .. Mr. Jefferson said is that what we have in front of us? I thought tha t what we had in front o: us .. Mr. Moore said Joe, ii is lim ited to like the emblem and the name of the organization . City Attorney Brotzman said that is it. Mr. Jefferson said I thought it include d letteri ng . Mayor Woodward said it will not advertise specific businesses . But that was changed in the ... going back to ... where was it? The flags di splay only the name , emblem and /or logo of the organizat ion and no individual business names . • • • • Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 27 Council Member Moore said so , what we have in front of us tonight.., if we could just pass this to take it to Publ ic hearing is ... the official BID flag . No, it's not a sales banne r and there is also no time limit. So, we would just be saying let's ... it just gives us something ... il is a working title of sorts to gel us through the Pu bli c Hearing and .. Council Member Oakley sa id okay , let's get to it then ... can we do that with the two motions we have now or do the y have to be withdrawn or just not...? We have a second to both of them , City Attorney Brotzman sa id you have actually moved , so you are going to need to do someth ing with those two motions . Whal John is propos ing is ... slmply vote on those ... approve them ... set the Publ ic Hearing and de al v•ith It then . Council Member W ilson said and then we can change ii if we chose lo? City Attorne i Brotzman said after the Pub li c Hearing , Ms . Wilson said oka y, Fine . Council •~ ,mber Mccaslin said we are not adopting anything tonight. City Attorney Brotzman sa id correct. Mr . McC~.un sa id we are just going on with the procedure to discuss at a further date . Mr . Brotzman sa id exactly . Ms . Wilson sa id right. Counc il Member Oakley said I can 't even remember what the motions were , Ma yor Woodward said the first motion was to ap~rove this . Correc t, Jill? Ms . Wilson said yes . Mr. Wood ward said ... as ii is written . And as it is written , there is just an example ... exhibil typo here ... that shows something tha t is not acceptable within this . And th is takes care of, I think , what John wants to do there . So , ii puts ii back to the Publ ic Hearing ... the second motion , to approve the Public Hearing , Counc il Member Jefferson sa id the reason we are choos ing to go that way is because nobody likes th is. Is that correct? Council Member Wilson said I don 't mind it. Mr, Jefferson said I don 't mind ii either. Counc il Member • Moore said I am not prepared to commit to it. Council Member Jefferson said us ing the same philosophy , we can just use that as starting point to move forward . Council Member Wilson said wh y don 't we hear what the publ ic has to say . Mr, Jefferson said I agree ... I am jus t saying if we are saying that we really' are not mak ing a dec isio n, I would prefer lo approve what they have asked us to approv~. Coun~il Member Moore said I just feel that whatever we do requires too much refinement ar,a we are probably not going to get ii perfect anyway ... so , let's just... we 've got a recommendat ion ... let's take ;,_ Council Member Jefferson sa id I agree and the only reason I suggest thal ... l guess ... is to just show the BID that we are working with them .. that we are trying In r 1ove th is along . That's my persona l... Council Member Moore said they can read the minutes , Mr, Jefferson said what's that? Mr, Moore said ... l said they can read the minutes ... il's 10:15 at night and we are still here talking about whether or no t th e flag should say "sale ". Council Member Jefferson sa id I think the re is something to be said for that though , In discussions with them , they don 't think our process is fas t... regardless of whether that's true or valid or no t... is a totally different po int . My thought is let's j ust position ourselves to be accommodating . Mayor Woodwa rd sa id I hav e one problem with that Joe , Al th e P & Z Hearing they didn 't show up . Counc il Member Jefferson sa id so we want to penalize them , what is... Mr . Woodward said that was the opportun ity, that was the big important part . Then , I know Alan had asked ... our Director of CD , had asked numerous times for this flag . Show us ... give it to us , And then finally , after the hea ri ng and all thal...here it comes . So , yes , you can bla me City Counc il, you can blame sta ff and you can blame eve~body in the building , but it's them . They have lo stand up and be accountabl e, • Council Member Jefferson said I ag ree , bul that's what I am saying ... why are we be ing adversarial ? Let's just partner with them . Ma yo r Woodwa rd said that is why I say let's approve th is, gel ii Into a Public Hea ri ng and gel th em here , Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 28 Council Member Jeffersoo said all I am suggest ing is app rove what they have submitted to us and be able to make the dec ision from there . Coc ,1 cil Member Oakley said let's call for the vote . Council Member Moore sa id either that or Joe you can make a mot ion to amend what is in front of us . Most of us just want to move forward . Council Member Wilson sa id .. but we will still have to have a Public Hearing ... correct? Counc il Member Jefferson said then I will make a motion . Is it okay that I seconded those oth er motions and I am making another motion? City Attorney Brotzman sa id yes . Council Member Wilson said then wi ll we need a Public Hearing Dan? Attorney Brotzman said .. no matter what you are go ing to have a Public Hearing . Mayor Woodward said motion number one is what we are discuss ing right now . Couacil Member Oakley sa id so we have two motions before us now and we are go ing to get a third? Mayor Woodward said we are going to get an amendment to the first motion . Council Member . 'efferson said okay . And I will make that amendment ,o read under (3) (b) ... to hav e it read only the name , emblem , logo of the organization and lettering , with no Individual business names . So , I would just add the words "and lettering ". Council Member Mccaslin said , but that wasn 't on the origina l. Counci l Member Jefferson sa id correct. I am making an amendment. Council Member Wilson said I would like it to have .. shall we spec ify the lettering to say sale? Mr . Jefferson said if that would make it any more accommodating 10 anybody else ... yes . But like I said , I am j ust movi,,g from the perspective of being as flexible as possible and being as accommodating as possible to our partners in our community. Ms . Wilson sa id I agree . Council Me mber Moore said it needs a second . Council Member Wilson said all right. Council Mem ber Jeffe rso n said did I hear a second from Jill? Ms . Wilson sa id I thought I heard a second , but I wil : seco nd it. Co uncil Member Moore said no , he needs a second . Ms . Wilson said I will second it. Mr. Moore sa id okay . COUNCIL MEMBER JEFFERSON MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON SECONDED , TO AMEND COUNCIL B)LL NO . 69, 16-6-13 (E) (3) (B) .... BY ADDING "AN D LETTERING " AFTER "OF THE ORGANIZATION ". Council Membe Jefferson said what do we say ... we are amending it first? Counc il Member Moore said we are just voting solel ~ on your amendment. Mayor Woodward said yes . Counci l Member Oakley sa id anything I don 't und erstand , I am not go ing to vote for . Mr . Jefferson said fa ir enough . Vote results on motion to amend Council BIii No . 69 : Ayes : Council Members Jefferson , Wilson Nays : Council Members Penn , Mccaslin , Moore Woodward , Oakley Motion defeated . Coun ci l Member Jefferso n sa id ... so now , the or iginal ? Coun cil Mem ber Moore sa id ye s. • • • Englewood City Cour.cll October 20 , 2008 Page 29 • Mayor Woodward sa id now we are now voting on the or iginal Age nda lier , 1: (a) (ii) as it stan ds ... Co un cil Bill No. 69 , withou t any changes . Please vote . Vote results on moti~n to approve Council BIii No . 69: Ayes : Council Memb ers Penn , Mccaslin, Moore , Woodward , Jefferson . Wilson , Oakley Na ys: None Motion carried . Coun ci l Member Je fferson sa id .. now the Public Hear ing . Coun ci l Member Oakl ey sa id I will state th at the only reason I voted yes is because I want to move it on . I don 't agree with this , but I want to move it on . Coun cil Member Moora id th.•: is all an y of us are say ing . Mayor Woodward sa id now we vote on setting the Public Hs,,r,r , h I' ,re any discuss ion ? I don 't think so . The re was none . Vote results on motion to set a Public Hearing on November 3, 2008 to consider Council BIii No. 69: Motion carried . Ayes : Council Members Penn , Mccaslin, Moore , Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson , Oakley Nays : None (iii) Directo r Kahm presented a recommendation from the Publ ic Works Department to adopt a bill for an ord inance amend ing the Eng lewood Mun ici pal Code perta ining to Conc rete Utility fees. He • said as you know the Concrete Ut ility was originally created in 1997 to provide us a ve hic le for ma intaining the City's concrete infrastructure . In that original ordin ance , the fees were est abl ishe d at about 7.8 cents per square foot. With 6.7 million square feet of concrete in the City , that generates a little over $520 ,000 .00 a year. We haven't had any fee increases since 1997, as a result of that we were able to do about a th ird of the work in 2008, that we were able to do in 1998 . So, Inflation has pretty well tom us apart. The ordinance that is before you ton ight is to amend the Code , to allow the City Counc il to adjust fees by resolution in th e future . That is what the change actually is. Our plan would be to be back here after the second reading on Nove mbe r 3 .. , with a resolution recomm end ing a fee increase of about 25% for 2009 . What that does , is it raises it from about 7.8 to 9.7 cents per square foot and generates about $130 ,000 .00 a year. It raises the cost to th e average 50 foot property , by about 50 cents a month . Council Member McCasl h said 50 cents a month? Mr . Kahm said yes . Council Member Moore said I have a question for Mr. Kahm . Th is is merely changing the structure for how we create the increa ses ? Mr. Kehm said th is Is merely changing the slruct ure. We wil l be ba ck with a resolution m two weeks . Mr. Moore said I th ink the consensus of Council is that resolution will have a mu lti-year inc rease in it. That is my recollection ... so whe n we see that resolut ion .. Mayor Woodward said I recall the resolut ion would be for two years ... because we are doing it by resolu tio n, we have the opportunity to look at the th ird ye ar then . Director Kahm sa id you would like th e first resolution to take care of two yea rs? Co unci l Member Moore sa id )J S ... 25 % for both years . Mr . Ka hm said I understand . Thank you . Mr . Moore said than k you . COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER OAKLEY SECONDED, TO APPROVE AGENDA ITEM 11 (a) (Ill) -COUNCIL BILL NO . 73. COUNCIL BILL NO . 73 , INTRODUCED BY COUN CIL MEMBER MOORE • A BILL FOR AN ORDINANCE AMENDING TITLE 12 , CHAPTER 8, SE CTION 6 OF THE ENGLEWOOD MUNICIPAL CODE 200Q , PERTAINING TO THE USER FEES FOR THE CONCRETE UTILITY AND CO NCRETF. UTILITY EN TER PRISE FUND FOR THE CITY OF EN GLEWO OD, CO LORAD O. Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 30 Mayor Woodward as ked if there were any further disc us sion ... questions . There we re non e. Vote results: Motion carried . Ayes : Council Membe rs Penn , Mcca slin , Moore . Woodwa rd , Jefferson , Wilson . Oa kley Nays : None Dire ctor Kahm said than r. you so much . (b) Approve! of Ordinances on Second Reading Council Member Moore sa id I have a procedural question . Can I mnve the second read i•1g issues in a g;o up? r:ity Attorney Brotzman said yes . Council Member Moore sa id Your Honor , if you don 't obj ect, I will read these and ma ke a mot ion on all four of them . COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON SECONDED, TO APPROVE AGENDl'. ITEMS 11 (b) (I), (II), (Ill) and (Iv). Council Member Moore said these are the second read ing of the bills that adopt the Budget for 2009, appropriate fund s and then also approve the Bu dget and appropriate funds for the Wastewater Treatment Plan t. Aga in, thes e are all on second reading . (i) ORDINANCE NO . 61 , SERIES OF 2008 (COUNCIL BILL NO . 61 , INTRODUCED BY COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON ) AN ORDIN ~ :~c;E AD OPTING THE BUDGET OF THE CITY OF ENGLEWOOD , COLORADO FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 2009. (ii) OPD INANCE NO . 62, SERIES OF 2008 (COUNCIL BILL NO . 58 , INTRODUCED BY COUNCIL MEMBER McC •.~LIN) AN ORDINANCE APPROPRIATING MONIES FOR ALL MUNICIPAL PURPOSES IN THE CITY OF ENGLEWOOD , COLORADO , FOR THE FISCAL YE AR BEGINNIN G JANUARY 1, 2009, AND ENDING DECEMBER 31, 2009, CONSTITUTING WHAT IS TER MED THE ANNUAL APPROPRIATION BILL FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 2009 . (iii) ORDINANCE NO . 63 , SERIES OF 2008 (COUNCIL BILL NO . 59, INTRODUCED BY COUNCIL ME MBER PENN ) AN ORDINANCE ADOPTING THE BUDGET FOR THE LITTL ETON/ENGLEWOOD WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANT FOR THE FIS CAL YEAR 20C9 . (iv) ORDINANCE NO . 64 , SERIES OF 2008 (C OUNCIL BILL NO . 60, INTRODUCED BY COUNCIL MEMBER McCASLIN) AN ORDINANCE APPROPRIATING MONIES FOR THE LITTLETON/ENGLEWOOD WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANT PURPOSES !N THE FISCAL YEAR BEGINNING JANUARY 1, 2009, AND ENDING • • DECEMBER 31 , 2009, CONSTITUTING WHAT IS TERMED THE AN NUAL APPROP RIATION BILL FOR THE • FISCAL YEAR 2009 . Mayor Woodward asked if th ere were any discuss ion Englewood City Council October 20 , 2008 Page 31 • Mayor Woo dward said the on ly po int I want to make Is that I think we as a Council and the Finance Director and Finance Departmenl are pretty comm itted to watch our budget ae,d during these uncerta in times , to be ve Iy aware of what is going on . Mayor Woodward said if there is noth ing else , please vote . Vote results : Motion carried . Ayes : Council Members Peno , Mccaslin , Moore , Wwdwa rr!. Jefferson , Wilson . Oakley Nays : Non e (c) Resolutions and Mot ions (i) Director Gryglewicz presented a recommendation from the Department of ~l nance and Administrative Services Department to approve a resolution authorizing a supplemental appropr iation of S69 ,000 .00 from the Landscape and Fine Arts Fund for lighting improvements , concrete and electrical repairs and holiday decorations . He said the money is be ing trarosferred to the Public Improvement Fund and of those monies ... l should mention that the Busi ness Improvement District is going to spend $7 ,000 .00 as well . So , the total uses of those funds , with that $7,000 .00 is $12 ,0000 .00 for Holiday lighting , S1 7,000 .00 for electrical and concrete repairs and $47 ,000 .00 for the globe replacements on Broadway, for a total of $76,000 .00 . Mayor Woodward asked if there was a motion to approve Agenda Item 11 (c) (i). COUNCIL MEMBER OAKLEY MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER PENN SECOND ED, TO APPROVE • AGENDA ITEM 11 (c) (I). A RESOLUTION TRANSFERRING FUNDS FROM THE LANDSCAPE AND FINE ARTS FUND TO THE PUBLIC IMPROVEMENT FUND FOR LIGHTING IMPROVEMENTS , CONCRETE AND ELECTRICAL REPAIRS AND HOLIDAY DECORATIONS . Mayor Woodward asked if there was any discussion . Mayor Woodward sa id I have some discussion . We have $12 ,000 .00 for Holiday lighting ... we have discussed this numerous times . The BID has come forward with providing up to $7,000 .00 in funding . If we are providing $12 ,000 .00 and they are providing $7 ,000 .00 ... that would be s1g ,ooo .oo in lighting , for ~ne year of lighting on Broadway . Where my question has been ... when the BID came forward with what I believe was $6,000 .00 to S7 ,000 .00 ... were they basically saying we will split the $12 ,000 .00 , wh ich would give us the opportun ity to do lighting on Broadway for two years , instead of this only being one year . I mean we are going to have a real nice lighting show for one year ... and that is it. This is coming out of a fund that isn 't being refunded at a rap id basis . Do you know the answer to that Frank? I know that Parks and Recreat ion has been working on this and was suppc ·e t~ have bids last week ... I believe . Director Gryglewlcz said I am not sure . I was just told that they were contributing $7 ,000 .00 for this project... for this year. Counc il Member Wilson sa id I don 't know that they necessari ly thought it was only go ing to be for a year. I j ust know that they said they would give $7 ,000 .00 . I'm sure they would be happier if that is go ing to be two years . Mayor Woodward said I am not asking about the BID . I would expect them to be one year and the City to be a year and then ne xt year do the same thing . So it is a two ye ar program . • Council Member Jefferson said my understanding was S12 ,000 .00 covered us this year and we were go ing to pull bac k our S1 2,000 .00 down to S6 ,000 .00 since the BID came with the ir money . That was my understanding . Counc il Member Wils on said I was thinking the $12 ,000 .00 was the year . Mr. Jefferson sa id yes ... it was the tot al for the year. Becau se I remember S12 ,000 .00 be ing allocated before BID ever came through with that Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 32 money . And I remember hear ing from someone .. Mayor Woodward sa id it wasn 't allocated , it w. ~ '1 iscu s.H 1 Mr. Jefferson sa id sure it was thrown out there as being $12 ,000.00 before they ever came thro ugh ,,-1 11 the money . So , Mayor Woodward sa id, are you say in g then Joe , we should chang o in;; S12,000.00 t, 1 ,.0iJO o:r : Co un cil Member Jefferson sa id from our end ... yes . That would be my understand ing . Mayor Ww,d~. ·, ,.•I_ "•I woul d be my understanding also . Anybody else? Council Member Penn said I th in~ that is the way I understood it also . Council Member Oakley sa id I certainly didn 't intend for it to be an annual th ing , so I would propos•• next year that we put in al least $6 ,000.00 . We 'll see what it does th is year. We are certa inly going to have more th is year than we have had in the last few years . Mayor Woodward sa id yes . So what we are looking at doing is modifying the $12 ,000 .00 for 'rloliday lighting to S6 ,000.00 and reducing the $69,000 .00 to $63,000.00 . Counc il Member Oakley said Jim , does that then leave more money ava ilable for more globes and stu fl like that then? Mayor Woodward sa id no , they have $17 ,000 .00 for electrical and concrete repairs and $47 ,00u.00 for globe replacements . So , Council Member Oakley said , so in other words, there will be $5,000.00 or $6 ,000.00 more left in the fund? Mayor Woodward said correct, there is still $6,000.00 left in the fund already . Mr. Oakley said I thought we were maxing out that fund . Mr . Woodward said no we are not... because with this 1here is S6011 .00 left in the fund after what was proposed . So , now there would be $12 ,000.00 . Council Member Jefferson said I am just th ink ing out loud here . Is there any possib ility that somebody had planned for us to allocate th is $12 ,000.00 and then take the BID money and put it somewhere else? Is there an accounting issue there? Council Member Wilson said no . Counc il Member Moore said Frank can we verify the numbers .. I don 't know if I missed th is ... the 12 and the 17 and the 47 add up to 76 , not 69. I just wanted to make sure .. Council Member Jefferson sa id 76 minus 7 is 69, isn 't it? Counc il Member Oakley sa id can we even vote on this? Coun cil Member Jefferson said I don 't know who put this together. Counci l Member Moore said is that what it was? That must be the difference . That must be where the difference is. Council Member Jefferson sa id that makes a lot of sense , doesn 't it... 76 and 69. City Manager Sears sa id the City is appropriating 69 and the BID is giv ing us 7. Mr. Jefferson said that must be the intent. Coun cil Member Oakley sa id so in fact we did max out our 69 . That is my unders . ing . Council Member Moore sa id we are down to .. Council Member Oakley said I think this is what I brought up in Study Session , that we go ahead and spend that 69. • • Mayor Woodward said but on lh 9 back page here Frank , doesn 't it say oere ... financ ial impact: the appropriation will leave $6 ,011 .00 in the Landscape and Fine Arts Fund? Director Gryylewicz said that is true . I believe what • happened was there were more mon ies that were taken in after the Study Session discussion . Mayor Woodward said okay . Eng lewood City Co uncil October 20 , l008 Page 33 • Council Member Oa kley sa,d mo re than the 69. Okay. Co unc il Me mber Moore sa id in the Resolution itself doesn 't tal k abo ut it.o $7,000.00 needed to get down to th e S69 ,000.00 total. So , we need to be more clea r about that. Council .Ae,1 ber Jefferson sa id I agree . So , it shou ld be funds be used fo r ... wh at would that be ... $5 ,000.00 for ho lida y lighting ... correct ? In that 4'" Whereas in the Resolution . Council Member Oakley sa id okay , should we pul l this and bri ng it oack in two weeks ? Coun cil Momber Moore and Jefferson sa id yes . Mr . Jefferson sa id good call . Mr. Oa kley sa id •r•,~ my vo te off. Counci l Member Wilson sa id ta Ke my vote off. Because , Mayor Woodward sa id, there has been no appropriat ion of funds on th is. Council Member Je fferso n sa id It makes no sense . Council Member Moore sa id where are we ? Did we already have a motion an d a second? Coun ci l Member Jefferson said I believe so . Council Member Oakley sa id I have al r~ady voted ... I know that. Council Member Moore sa id same here . Mr. Jeffers on said that mus t mean somebod y must have seconded . I wouldn 't have pressed that button un less somebod y seconded . Counc il Member Wilson sa id how about we move to table it unt il it is redon e. City Attorney Brotzman sa id why don 't you do this ... why do n't you con ti nue it to the next meeting . City Clerk Ellis sa id I can reset the vote . Council Member Oakley said that would be bette r . • COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON MOVED , AND COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE SECONDED , TO CONTINUE AGENDA ITEM 11 (c) (I) TO THE NEXT CITY COUNCIL MEETING . Motio n carried . Ayes : Counc il Members Penn , McCas ll n, Moore , Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson , Oakley Nays : None Council Member Wilson said I would lik e to have a brea k. Mayor Wood ward said I would like to propose to Council that from now on ... at appro ximately 9:30, when we have these long mee ti ngs that we take a 5 to 10 minute break . Council Member Oakley sa id I don 't disagree with that at all . Council Member Jefferson sa id I th ink 5 would be adequate . Counc il Member Moore sa id that wou ld be my preference . Th e meeting re cessed al 10 :35 pm. The meeting reconvened at 10:41 p.m. with all Council members presen t. (ii ) Director Gryglew icz presented a recommendat ion from the Department of Finan ce and Adm inistrative Serv ices Department to approve a resolution authorizing an amendment to the City of Englewood Police Officers Pens ion Plan inc rea sing co nt ri bu tio ns to ten pe rcen t. He sa id when the contract was negotiated th is last lime for 2009 to 2010 ... wh ich Counc il di d approve with Resolution 66 , Series of 2008 ... the Police Officers barga ined for and rece ived an increase in the City's contribution lo the ir Pe nsion Plan from 9 to 10%, wh ich will cost , approx imately , $39,000.00 in 2009 and will increase , as I ages increase in th e out years . COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER McCASLIN SECONDED, TO APPROVE • AGENDA ITEM 11 (c) (II) • RESOLUTION NO . 75, SERIES OF 2008 . RESOLUTION NO . 75, SERIES OF 2008 Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 34 A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN AMENDMENT TO THE ICMA RETIREMENT CORPORATION GOVERNMENTAL MONEY PURCHASE PLAN & TRUST ADOPTION AGREEMENT FOR THE ENGLEWOOD POLICE OFFICERS 401a MONEY PURCHASE PLAN (PLAN). Mayor Woodward asked if there was any discussion . There was none . Vote results : Mot ion carried , Ay es: Council Members Penn , McCoslin , Moore , Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson , uakley Nays : None 12 . General Discussion a) Mayo(s Choice (i) Mayor Woodward said the very first Item that I'd like to mention ... vote early. If you have mail in ballots , it's being sugg ested that you mail them in early . CityCenter has Early Voting ... that began today . The hou rs are posted . It has been recommended that you vote early and Arapahoe County is expecting to be slammed al the end . They are hoping that ev erybody will vote early if they can . (ii) Mayor Woodward said I'd like to bring up Joyce Parson's request abou t extending to employees ... retired employees ... recreation center benefits . That is I believe, being judged as a resident , as opposed to a non-resident. I can 't imagine that this is a big dollar amount. We provide a reduction to non - resident business owners and their families . I personally think that for ex-employees that do not live within the City that that's something that we could provide for reti red employees . Council Member Moore said Jim , is this something we should ask the Parks and Re creation Commission to give us their op inion about or is this some thing that we should decide? Mayor Woodward said maybe we should pass ii on . Council Member Oakley said it was proposed , as I understand it , to Jerrell and he said the only way it could be done is to go before the City Council , and I think that's why Joyce came . Bui that 's sot saying that they wculd be in favor of ii, one way or the other . They were just tole that's the way it would have to be . Council Member Mccaslin said I would love to get their input. Mayor Woodward said Bob is the liaison , and as a member of the Parks and Recreation Commission, I would like to see what their recommendation would be . Council Member Mccaslin sa id I would like to bring it in front of them . Mayor Woodward sa id okay . Council Member Mccaslin said and then bring ii back here to Council. Cou nc il Member Penn said another piece to this ... and I've had other people co n,_ to me ... are teachers that are not li ving with in the City and they would lik e to use the facilities too , at a non -res idents ' rate also . Council Member Wilson : aid you mean at a residents' rate? Council Member Penn said yes at the re sidents ' rate , right. So , I think that's another part that we might look at , but I think that should be a discu;si on for Parks and Recreation . Ma yo r Woodward sa id going along with ou r memorandum earlier th is summer with regard to a healthy City , as far as em pl oyees , and I think what I brought up for the school district agenda ton ight... I would agree with you Randy . Council Member Penn said I think ii should be discussed . I don 't know what they could come back with and if they would have a dollar figure on that or not. Council Member Mccaslin said I'll definitely bring that up to the Parks and Recreation Comm iss ion . Council Member Wi lson said it may be the difference too , whether they use the facility at ail or if they will use it now if they get a reduced rate , which may increase rev'1nue . • • Council Member Mccaslin said help me clarify . They 're just asking for the benefit of us ing the facilities at • reside nts ' rates ? Council Member Penn said yes . Mayor Woodward said that is my understanding . Council Mem ber Mccaslin sa id I thought she said ... Council '-'ember Jeffersc., sa id I didn 't think it was at a reduced rate . I thought ii was al no fee. That's wh,at l understood . Council Member Mc c aslin said that's what I heard . • • Englewood City Council Octobor 20, 2008 Page 35 Coun ci l Member Moore asked what do employees get? City Manager Sears repl ied we get free access to the Recreation Center. Council Member Jefferson said that's what I heard . Council Member Moore said tha t's what she asked for. City Manager Sears said it was not a residential rate , but free access . as I understood her to say ... the ex-employees , not the ir family. Council Member Moore said just going back to what we 're asking input from Parks and Recreation on ... the request was made that former employees get the same access that they received as employees and we'd like the Parks and Recreation 's opin ion about that and then are we off ... Council Member Penn said teachers would like residents' rates, not free access. Council Member Moore said then the second question is what about extending residents ... Council Member Penn said teachers or employees of the school district at residents' rates ... Ccuncll Member Moore said so we 're just asking input from them and then we can decide how to take action . (Iii) Mayor Woodward sa id Matthew, your five dollars ... the donor's fund . I th ink would be the proper place. Matthew Crabtree spoke from the audience ... the comments were Inaud ible . Mayor Woodward said Frank said he would lake care of it. (iv) Mayor Woodward said I just wanted lo mention I applied for a position with the Na ti ona l League of Cities, First Tier Cities Steering Committee during their meeting In Novem~er in Orlando ... that application will be evaluated. That's all I have . Council Member Penn said just whet you need , more things to do . Council Member Mccaslin sa id you told me you were cutting back . Mayor Woodward replied I am cutting back. (b) Council Members' Choice (I) Council Member Penn: 1. He said to all of the peep'·, who came in for our UDC hearing ... I appreciate them coming In and giv ing us their Input. 2. COUNCIL MEMBER PENN MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE SECONDED, TO CONTRIBUTE $500.00 TO THE ROCKY MOUNTAIN RAIL AUTHORITY FOR DUES. Council Member Penn said we are an active part of that and we have been kind of sliding along for the last thre e or four years free . I think th is is something we should do. Council Member Moore sa id just to be clear ... this is for the dues. Mr. Penn said this is for the dues for th e Rocky Mountain Rail Authority. Mayor Woodward said the only discussion is that I think it's only been a year, a year and a half, no t four or five . Mayo r Woodwa rd as ke d if there was any other discussion ur remarks . There were none . Vote results : Motion carried . Ayes: Council Members Penn , Mccaslin, Moore, Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson , Oakley Nays: None 3. He said a couple of th ings with the schools coming in and be ing good par' ,ers that we are , I am going to make a recommundat:on on one of them and let you guys do the other one. I recommend that we g ive • $100 .00 to th e school newspaper, as a donation to help them feed themselves on deadl ine day and as a personal note, I would be willing lo pay for one of their meals myself, as an individual. Englewood City Council October 20 , 200f, Page 36 Council Member Moore asked lo clarify the funding . Council Member Penn said I think we got a note the other day. Mayo r Woodward said within our packet, I'd asked Sue to discuss City Council available funds , and available from the Aid to Other Agencies account is $1 ,000.00 and available from the Aid lo Individuals account is $500.00 , so City Council has $1 ,500 .00 available in 2008 for distribution . So Aid to Other Agencies I woulJ think that's ... COUNCIL MEMBER PENN MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE SECONDED, TO CONTRIBUTE $1 00 ,00 TO THE PIRATEER, THE ENGLEWOOD HIGH SCHOOL Nl. l SPAPER, Council Member Jefferson said with that be ing said , they did ask us for $200.00. Are we not willing to go lo $200 .00 7 Counci1 '1,ember Wilson asked what about the second hundred? Council Member Moore sa id Joe I don 't have a probl, . with the $200.00 . Council Member Penn sa id but we do have to talk about the Spanish class. Mayor Woodward sa J I thought the Pirateer was ... Council Member Penn said $200 .00 is what they asked fo•. Mayor Woodward sa id I didn't hear that. Council Member Penn sa id I will take a friendly amendment If you want to do that, but that will be a discussion for everyone else. Council Member Jefferson said I'd like to give them $200.00 , since we have $1 ,500.00 in the kitty until the end of the year. COUMCIL MEMBER JEFFERSON OFFERED A FRIENDLY AMENDMENT TO CONTRIBUTE $200.00 TG TH£ PIRATEER. COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE SAID MY SECOND STANDS . Vote results on motion to contribute $200 .00 to tho Plratoer : Motion carried . Ayes: Council Members Penn , McCas!in , Moore, Woodward , Jefferson , Wilson, Oakley Nays: None 4. He sa id on the last one , on the Spanish class , I really have no idea . I mean , we 're look ing al... 11hat Bob figured out was S 19, 600.00. Council Member Jefferson said I don 't think they expe ct us to fund that. Council Member Penn said they sa id any amount. I don 't know if we have money left and so I am goiog to leave that up to one of the other Council members maybe to make a motion and I believe we should look into it and then I will personally donate money to them also. I we uld encourage them to do more fundraisers , wh ich I'm sure that they are doing . (ii) Council Member Mccaslin: 1. He sa id to piggy-back on Randy's, even as far as lhl• Pirateer, I don 't mind helping with a meal myself, but I wouldn 't mind talking to some of the ... Frank's Pizza or different restaurants like that around town to help donate at least dinners . As a Councilman , maybe that would help . If you would like to coriact me , I will help you with that. Someone spoke from the audience ... the comments were inaudible . Well , let me give it a shot. Again someone spoke from the audience ... it was inaudible. We'll see what we can do . 2. He sa id on the other one, again $19 ,000.00 , I'm like Randy, I don't know where to start on th is. If there is anyway we can help the Spanish class , even to put our signature on something they might want to do ... but $19 ,000.00 is a lot of money, so I'm going to pass on that one for right now. (iii) Council Member Moore: • • • • Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 37 1. He sa id regarding the Public Hearing , I just wanted to ... again. long nights like this are difficu lt, but the input was extremely valuable . Unfortunately, the individua ls were overly focused on one prc perty, but we really can look at that as a case study, so I st ill think we can extract qu ite a bit of value from their comments, ev en though , aga in, they understa nd that we were focused on a relatively narrow b it of proper,y ... piece of property. 2. He said to Mr. Crabtree , I ju st want to clarify for the record that I don 't agree with your characterization of my comments from last week . Fortunately, public record has my wo •e ,. so I don't need to dwell on it. As far as the Study Session goes, there was ... again , I want to clarify for the record , there was no change in Council 's practice ... merely a clarification of the way ... a clarification for your benefit of the way things work , so don't interpret my actions in Study Session as being a change in behavior ... beca,•ss ii was not. 3. He said I will bring up the Advanced Placement Span ish class requ~st. I can 't go home without feeling guilty for how long they had to stay ton ight. So I will , at least. make a motion that we support the ir efforts to the tune of ... boy, th is is hard . With $19,000 .00, there's not much you can do about it. Council Member Jefferson sa id d idn 't they say there were five of them ... Cou r.cii Member Mccaslin sa id there's six students and one adult for $2 ,800.00 a piece . So that's $19 ,600 .00 . That's why they didn 't go last lime. Council Member Jefferson said and that's why I was saying that maybe we can give them $50 .00 per person. Council Member Moore said thanks ... not just for coming and asl:!ng .. but they stayed way longer than you would want them to have to. Council Member Penn said John . lhan r, you for pushing that forward . • COUNCIL MEMBER MOORE MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER PENN SECONDED, TO SUPPORT THE EFFORTS OF THE 1'DVANCED PLACEMENT SPANISH CLASS IN THE AMOUNT OF $200 .00 . Mayor W oodward asked if there were comments. There were none. Vote results : Motion carried. Ayes : Council Members Penn , Mccaslin, Moore, Woodward , Jefferaon , Wilson , Oakley Nays: None Mayor Woodward said thank yo• John . (iv) Council Member Oakley: 1. He said to deliberate a li ttle more on what John said about Study Sessions and the decis ions be ing made ... and Matthew's concerns . I do want to be as transparent as anybody , but I think the y have to realize that the reason we have St,,dy Sessions is to be able to talk some of th is stuff through or this m,· sting would be going on until 3 or 4 o'~lock In the morning . So, 1:e have to have both and we ough , to try to t •. ,s transparent as we can , but we have to have both. 2. He sa id Jim and I talked about th is a little earlier tonight. At DRCOG ... RTD came before the DR COG Board talking about FASTRACKS and their money problems and what they are going to be able to do . ii showed t"eir proposals that ranged all the way from going ahead and completing the FASTRACKS proposal with whatever it takes to do ii, like single track where they use to have double, hours of service and then lh~y had four ott;er proposals. What I'm getting to is that in our interest, the extension of our rail on up to Highlands Ranch , where the City property is concerned. In my opinion . after looking at all of the proposals, unless they go • ahead and do the full funding on that original proposal. .. that extdnsion up to High lands Ranch , will be years and years away, if evar. So , if we want to see that happen , we would hope that they try to somehow do the full fun ding . T:1al's a very short proposal. The other cilies ... it's divided up between the haves and the have nots. Us tha t ha ve th e system now and those that fell they pa id to get it, and the•.• were promised ii and now they are Englewood City Council October 20, 2008 Page 38 no t su re that they 're go ing to get it...they are very , very upset. They took RTD to tas k qu ite heavi ly at DRCOG . I did state that even though we were among the haves , everyth ing is n't sunsh ine and roses down he re too , because from the get go, there was never enough par king . That's what we 're work ing on now and in RTD 's defense , they are worki ng with us on tha t. That's as far as I wen t. (v) Coun ci l Member Wilsoo : 1. She sa id I'm glad that we had the Public Hearing . It was good for me to hear what everyone else thought. I extracted a couple of th ings from It. I'm hoping ... I know how they feel about the 5% variance, but I feel that had maybe Mr. Curnow worked a little bit more with the residents , that maybe there wouldn 't be as much of an issue ... plus maybe sha ri ng the designs of his home , ~o they don 't th ink that it's go ing to be all garage and driveway in the front and maybe they would see that It would fit in with the rest of their ne ighborhood . I don 't know, but it was good to hear from them . 2. Slie sa id I know that Matthew Crabtree had sa id he didn't want to take a stand , but I bel ieve once before you spoke at City Council and you were for the 5% variance , in case you forgot. 3. She sa id I feel bad for these kids , because if they were in a wealthier school district or with wealth ier parents , they would have this opportunity to go for Spanish and due to the fact that we are not a wealthy neighborhood, it looks like they may be squashed again . I have concerns when people want to do ... get more opportunities , I wish there were grants or something out there that they could apply for and get. (vi ) C vuncil Member Jefferson: 1. He said to the folks at the Pira teer , I hope that couple of hundred bucks helps out and goes a long way to aid the program . 2. He sa id I wish the best for th e folks in the Advanced Placement Spanish class . 3. He said I also want to thank all of the folks for coming down to speak about our UDC . It was very helpful tr me to aee some of their arguments that were articulated qu ite well . They will certainly be considered . But I think we ha ·,e a tough decisio n. I think we have to look at what 's best for the greater good of the City, not just what's going on , on Ogden Street 11 ,ere . 4. He said I'd also like to make a motion to bring forward an ordinance to revoke EMC 7-68-3 perta ining to unlawful acts and assembl ies . That 's what it was titled . The piece is coded Unlawful Acts and Assemblies and that's the one that banned certa in objects in certain assemb lies that are more than a certa in width and a certa in diameter ... for sign s ... for protest sig 11s that are typ lc•lly ,,sed for protect signs ... that we approved just before the DNC and we had discussed at the previous Study Session . Just to clarify , my motion would be just to bring forward an ordinance to have us cons ider it at our ne xt meeting . We wouldn 't be necessarily dec iding that issue ton isht. My thought is that generally with it be ing ... you know, we 've ta lked about it in Study Session and it seems to be a contested issue on Council here and I'd love th e opportunity to bring it bac k and have one more discuss ion about it in publ ic and vote at that po int. So I'v e 901 a motion , is there a second? Ma yor Woodward asked if there was a second . Cuuncil Member Jefferson said this is to bring forward an ordinance that would repea l. {C ler k's note : Th is was listed on the Age nda as item numbe r 12 (b) (i ).) COUNCIL MEMBER JEFFERSON MOVED, AND COUNCIL MEMBER WILSON SECONDED, TO BRING FORWARD AN ORDINANCE TO REPEAL 7-6B-3 EMC UNLAWFUL ACTS AND ASSEMBLIES . Mayor Woodwa rd sa id I will open it up for discus si on . There was none . Vote results : Aye s: Co un ci l Members Woodward , Jeffer so n, Wilson • • • • • • Englewood Glty Counci! October 20, 2008 Page 39 Nays : I 1otion defea te d. Co un cil Members Penn . Mc casl in, Moore , Lskley Mayor Woodward as ked is the re anything else Joe . Co uncil Me mbe r Jeffe rson sa id I guess I would just care to comment that I certa inly understand everybody 's positio n on that issue that we just voted on. I would just appreciate so me comments on where or why yo u are on that side . Just briefly . I understand it's late . I won 't ask 1or anyone to go too in-depth . Council Member Mccaslin said we voted it down . I rea ll y think that we left it up to the professiona ls to bring us the ord inance that they felt they needed to deal with the situa tions of emotionality or not just emotionality, just for protecti on of themselves and other peop ie. I feel that I trust the ir j udgment. We give them guns , we giv e them machine guns , we give the billy clubs , we give them mace , and we give the m all kinds of stuff to protect themselves . And they use thos e things with common sense, so why wouldn 't they use this with common sense? So I'm going to leave it up to the profess ionals . Coun cil Member Jefferson said I appreci ate tha t comment. Counc il Member Penn said I go wit h th • same th ing . I think they came to us with tha t one and there hasn 't been any occurrence on it aga in and I th ink it can always be looked at aga in later on , but righ t now , I want to leave it with th ,im and go that wa y. Counc il Member Jefferson said I apprec iate th at comment Randy . Cr-·,roil Member Jeffe m r. said the ma in reason I brought it forward , I feel that it does sort of mess up that 1-~lioate balance between privacy and the govemment's right to search and se ize . I'll leave it at th at. Thank you for those comments guys . Mayor Woodward ;aid a littl e clarity came to me regard ing the vc,ti ng . It was the County Clerk , th e Arapahoe County Clerk Nancy Doty that recommended we vote earty ... so get your ballots in. 13. City Manager's Report City Manage r Sears did not have any matters to br ing before Council. 14. City Attorney's Report City Attorney Brotzman did not ha ve any matters to bring befo re Counc il. 15 . Adjournment