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Home My WebLink About1979-07-02 (Regular) Meeting MinutesREGULAR MEETING: POLICE/FIRE CENTER CITY OF ENGLEWOOD, COLORADO July 2, 1979 The City Council of the City of Englewood, Arapahoe County, Colorado, met in regular session at 7:30 p.m. on July 2, 1979. Mayor Taylor, presiding, called the meeting to order. The invocation was given by Reverend D. Raymond Parry, Hampden Hills Baptist Church, East Dartmouth and South University Boulevard. The Pledge of Allegiance was led by Boy Scout Troop #92. Mayor Taylor asked for roll call. Upon a call of the roll, the following were present: Council Members Williams, Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Taylor. Absent: Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared a quorum present. * * * * * * Also present were: City Manager Mccown Assistant City Manager Curnes City Attorney Berardini Acting Director of Conmunity Development Romans Chief of Police Holmes Director of Utilities Fonda Deputy City Clerk Watkins * * * * * * COUNCILMAN SMITH MOVED TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF JUNE 18, 1979. Councilman Mann seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Nays: Abstain: Council Members Smith, Harper, Mann, Williams, Taylor. None • . council Member Clayton. July 2, 1979 Page 2 Absent: Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * At the request of Mayor Taylor, Chief of Police Holmes appeared before Council and read a proclamation praising the heroic efforts of Mark Jacobs, an Englewood Reserve Patrolman, in saving the life of a young woman suffering electrical shock. Mayor Taylor presented the proclamation to Mark Jacobs, 3655 South Delaware Street. Mr. Jacobs accepted the proclamation and thanked Council for this recognition. COUNCILMAN CLAYTON MOVED TO APPROVE THE PROCLAMATION FOR MARK JACOBS. Councilman Harper seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Nays: Absent: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams, Taylor. None. Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * Reverend W. W. Brandt, 4469 South Washington Street, was present and discussed a problem in the alley of the 4400 block between South Pearl and South Washington Street. Mr. Brandt stated the City excavated the alley behind his property approximately 25 feet north of his north line and 25 feet south of his south line for the purposes of correcting a water drain- age problem. Mr. Brandt stated the City excavated 14 inches and as a result he is unable to get his trailer up onto its parking pad. There exists approximately an 11-inch drop. The City crew came back at his request and filled in 2 -3 inches with gravel; but it was not enough. Mr. Brandt suggested that the crew return and excavate 2 -3 inches along the entire block. Councilman Smith suggested that the drop be filled in and sloped to allow Mr. Brandt access to his trailer park- ing pad and at the same time solve any water drainage problems. Mr. Brandt stated he felt the only solution was to excavate the entire alley. . . July 2, 1979 Page 3 COUNCILMAN SMITH MOVED THAT THE CITY SURVEYOR LOOK AT MR. BRANDT'S PROPERTY AND PROVIDE AN ALTERNATIVE WHETHER IT BE MR. BRANDT'S SUGGESTION OR HIS AND COME BACK TO COUNCIL WITH SOME ANSWERS. Councilman Williams seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams, Taylor. Nays: None. Absent: Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * Mr. Eddie Tanguma, Jr., 1020 West Tufts Avenue, was pre- sent as a representative of the Englewood Pirate Band Boosters and discussed his request that Council participate in sponsoring the band at the Rose Bowl Parade. Mr. Tanguma requested those people in the audience who were in support of the band and his request to stand. Approximately 40 people stood up. Mr. Tanguma stated his presence was prompted by an article in the Englewood Herald Sentinel which indicated that Council was not going to financially support the band in its endeavors. He acknowledg- ed that this was not true, that the Council has not taken any action, and offered to meet with the Council in a study session to discuss his request in more detail. COUNCILMAN WILLIAMS MOVED TO SET UP A STUDY SESSION ON AUGUST 6, 1979 TO MEET WITH DR. GIRARDI AND MR. TANGUMA AT 5:00 P.M. Councilman Smith seconded the motion. Mayor Taylor read a letter he wrote to Mr. L. L. Brownewell concerning Council's sponsorship of the Englewood High School Band. The contents of the letter related that the students should try to make as ouch money this summer as possible to pay their own way first. Council would be happy to help them after they make every effort to help themselves. Mayor Taylor stated Council has not closed the doors on helping the band; the newspaper was wrong. Upon a call of the roll, the vote on Councilman Williams's motion to set up a study session on August 6th resulted as follows: July 2, 1979 Page 4 Ayes: Nays: Absent: The Mayor Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Williama, Mann, Taylor. None. Council Member Weber. declared the motion carried. * * * * * * Mr. Rodney Utz, 3251 South Josephine, Denver, and Mr. William Gilmore, 2934 South Detroit Way, Denver, were present. These gentlemen own The John, 90 West Belleview, and were present to request a 3.2 beer license renewal. Captain Ron Frazier, Englewood Police Department, was present and discussed the police incident reports wherein three incidents of po11ible license violation were reported but no vio- lations were cited. Councilman Mann asked the City Attorney if there was cause to bring charges against The John for purposes of revocation or suspension of their beer license. City Attorney Berardini stated he would have to review the case and report back to Council. COUNCILMAN HANN MOVED TO DIRECT THE CITY ATTORNEY TO IN- VESTIGATE THE MATTER AND FOR COUNCIL TO SET A STUDY SESSION TO RE- VIEW THE RESULTS OF MR. BERARDINI'S REPORT ON JULY 16, 1979; ALSO THAT BOTH OWNERS REAPPEAR BEFORE COUNCIL AT THE REGULAR MEETING ON JULY 16, 1979 AT WHICH TIME COUNCIL WILL MAKE A FORMAL DECISION CON- CERNING THE BEER LICENSE RENEWAL REQUEST. Councilman Williams sec- onded the motion. Councilman Smith stated he understood there have been numerous nuisance reports concerning The John and requested these reports to be included in the packet of information for the meeting on July 16, 1979. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Nays: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams, Taylor. None. I July 2, 1979 Page 5 Absent: Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * Mayor Taylor asked if there were any other visitors in the audience wishing to speak to Council. Mr. Roger Valaquez, 4500 South Acoma, and Bob Weinstein, 3225 South High, appeared before Council. Mr. Valaquez and Mr. Weinstein are students at Englewood High School. They inquired about the availability of summer jobs through the City since many students who have applied have been turned away. Mayor Taylor stated when he proposed that the City pro- vide a job clearing house, he was told the band parents were doing this. Mayor Taylor stated the City will be happy to help the stu- dents in anyway they can to find jobs; however, the financial sup- yort will be determined after every student has made an effort to help himself or herself first. City Manager Mccown stated the City does hire youth for various summer jobs; and generally there are many more applicants than available jobs. Mr. Mccown stated most of the jobs were filled early in the year. Mayor Taylor asked if there were any other visitors in the audience wishing to address the Council. No one responded. * * * * * * "CoD111Unications -No Action Recot1111ended" on the agenda were received: (a) (b) (c) (d) (e) Minutes of the Board of Adjustment and Appeals special meeting of May 2, 1979. Minutes of the Denver Regional Council of Governments meeting of May 16, 1979. Minutes of the Housing Authority meeting of May 30, 1979. Minutes of the Planning and Zoning Conmission meeting of June 5, 1979. Minutes of the Animal Control Conmittee meet- ing of June 11 and June 25, 1979. * * * * * * July 2, 1979 Page 6 City Manager Mccown presented a reco11111endation from the Planning and Zoning Colllftission meetinf of June 19, 1979 concerning an amendment to the Comprehensive Zon ng Ordinance Section 22.7 - 7, Sign Code. Mr. Mccown stated the amendment relates to the place- ment of political signs. Dorothy Romana, 3600 South Bannock, Acting Director of Connunity Development, appeared before Council to answer questions concerning the proposed amendment. In response to Councilman Mann's question, Acting Director Romana stated the only place signs can not be installed are along state and federal highways. Also, in response to Mr. Mann's question, Ms. Romana stated a public hearing DI.1st be held on this reco11111enda- tion in order to amend the zoning ordinance. COUNCILMAN HARPER MOVED TO INSTRUCT THE CITY ATTORNEY TO PREPARE AN ORDINANCE INCORPORATING THE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE PLANNING AND ZONING COfilotISSION AND THAT A PUBLIC HEARING DATE BE SET. Councilman Clayton seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams, Taylor. Nays: None. Absent: Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * Director of Utilities Stu Fonda appeared before Council and presented the minutes of the Water and Sewer Board meeting of June 26, 1979 and the reconwnendations contained therein. Director Fonda discussed the Board's reconwnendation to approve a request for a water tap outside of the City of Englewood at 3201 South Zuni Street. COUNCILMAN MANN MOVED TO APPROVE THE RECOMMENDATION OF I THE WATER BOARD GRANTING THE REQUEST FOR A 3/4 INCH DOMESTIC WATER TAP FOR PROPERTY OUTSIDE THE CITY LIMITS AT 3201 SOUTH ZUNI STREET. Councilman Smith seconded the motion. Councilman Smith asked why Councilman Harper had voted against the water tap at the Water Board meeting. I July 2, 1979 Page 7 Councilman Harper stated he was of the opinion service can not continue outside the City until the main is enlarged. Add- ing outside taps would decrease pressure for inside-city users. Councilman Mann stated his reason for granting the re- quest is that all other taps on the same side of Zuni outside the City limits are furnished by Englewood and it was only fair that this applicant be serviced. Also, the City has a moratorium on outside water taps with two exceptions: 1) taps could be granted providing it did not decrease the pressure and 2) providing they did not interfer with the Englewood water system. Mr. Mann stated this request did not violate those exceptions. Director Fonda stated one tap would have no effect on the water system. A large scale request would, however. Mayor Taylor stated the applicant's present occupation indicates a low uaeage of water. If the applicant should expand his operations, he could have a high useage. Mayor Taylor noted staff's recoDlllendation is that Council deny the request. Mayor Taylor stated the applicant has promised to reappear before the Water Board should he change or expand his business. In response to Councilman Smith's question, Director Fonda stated staff reconnended denying the request because it could become difficult to serve outside taps if the area inside Englewood continued to develop. In response to Councilman Clayton's question, Director Fonda stated the Denver Water Board has first choice to provide or deny service to this applicant. Mr. Fonda stated he did not think the Denver Water Board would vote to provide service because they would have to install a line to get to the applicant's property. Upon a call of the roll, the vote on Councilman Mann's motion to approve the request for a water tap outside the City at 3201 South Zuni Street resulted as follows: Ayes: Council Members Williams, Smith, Clayton, Mann, Taylor. Nays: Council Member Harper. Absent: Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. July 2, 1979 Page 8 Director Fonda discussed the Water Board's reconmendation to approve a revised Reserve Water District Contract and a request for the Denver Water Board to supply water for the Reserve Water I District. Mr. Fonda stated the revision in the Water District Con- tract removes Englewood'• responsibility towards maintenance of the water mains. Concerning the request that Denver supply water for the Reserve Water District, Mr. Fonda stated the Denver Water Board was in a better position to supply water and the initiation of action had to be started by Englewood in the form of a request. COUNCILMAN HARPER MOVED TO APPROVE THE REVISED WATER CON- TRACT. Councilman Mann seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Nays: Absent: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams, Taylor. None. Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. COUNCILMAN HARPER MOVED TO APPROVE THE LETTER TO THE DENVER WATER BOARD CONCERNING SUPPLYING WATER FOR THE RESERVE WATER DISTRICT. Councilman Smith seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Nays: Absent: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams, Taylor. None. Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. Director Fonda discussed the Water Board's reconmendation to indicate an inclination to participate in the funding of a metro water conservation handbook with the Denver Regional Council of Gov- ernments. COUNCILMAN HARPER MOVED THAT THE CITY COUNCIL APPROVE PARTICIPATION IN THE FUNDING OF A METRO WATER CONSERVATION HAND- BOOK. Councilman Williama seconded the motion. Director Fonda stated the financial participation would be based on population and the estimated cost would be $100. July 2, 1979 Page 9 Mayor Taylor stated such a study was unnecessary. Councilman Smith stated there was already an abundant amount of information published on water conservation. Director Fonda stated his recoDlllendation to participate in the water conservation handbook is based on the need to make people aware of the need to protect the resource of water and to use water conservatively. Councilman Smith spoke against Englewood's submitting to full participation in programs imposed by the Denver Regional Coun- cil of Governments. Director Fonda stated there was no adequate handbook outlining practical information on landscaping buildings, etc., that would help people conserve their useage of water. Councilman Clayton queried participating in a project for which there would be little or no input from the Council. Councilman Clayton stated it would be like "rubber-stamping" the handbook even though it may have contents with which Council disagrees. City Manager Mccown stated it seemed necessary to publish and make available information concerning the conservation of water at the minimal cost of $100. Mr. Mccown stated the City by itself could not publish a handbook for that price. Upon a call of the roll, the vote on Councilman Harper's motion to participate in the funding of a handbook on water con- servation resulted as follows: Ayes: Council Members Harper, Williams. Nays: Council Members Smith, Clayton, Mann, Taylor. Absent: Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion defeated. Director Fonda discussed the Water Board's reconunendation to approve the Supplement 110 Greenbelt Sanitation District. COUNCILMAN CLAYTON MOVED TO APPROVE SUPPLEMENT 110 GREEN- BELT SANITATION DISTRICT. Councilman Smith seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: July 2, 1979 Page 10 Ayea: Nays: Absent: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams, Taylor. None. Council Member Weber. 'lbe Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * Mayor Taylor declared a recess at 8:55 p.m. Council reconvened at 9:10 p.m. Mayor Taylor asked for roll call. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Council Members Williama, Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Taylor. Absent: Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared a quorum present. ORDINANCE NO. 28 SERIES OF 1979 * * * * * * BY AUTHORITY COUNCIL BILL NO. 26 INTRODUCED BY COUNCILMAN MANN AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTION 42, ARTICLE IV (GENERAL PROVISIONS; RESTRICTIONS) OF CHAPTER 3, TITLE XV, OF THE OFFICIAL CITY CODE, RELATING TO THE REPAIR, REPLACEMENT, LOWERING, AND THAWING OF WATER SERVICE LINES WITHIN THE PUBLIC RIGHT-OF-WAY IN THE CITY OF ENGLEWOOD. City Attorney Berardini noted some changes to the ordinance. COUNCILMAN MANN MOVED TO PASS COUNCIL BILLL NO. 26 ON FINAL READING WITH THE FOLLOWING AMENDMENTS AS STATED BY THE CITY ATTORNEY: 1. 15-3-42 (a) (1) STRIKE "WHEN NECESSARY". 2. 15-3-42 (b) STRIKE "OR ANY OTHER GOOD CAUSE". 3. 15-3-42 (d) STRIKE "SHOULD THAT ACTION BE DEEMED NECESSARY". July 2, 1979 Page 11 Councilman Smith seconded the motion. Councilman Smith questioned the language under 15-3-42 (a) (1) "option and". Mr. Smith thought for clarity the words should be striken from the section. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Nays: Absent: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams, Taylor. None. Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. RESOLUTION NO. 25 SERIES OF 1979 * * * * * * A RESOLUTION ACCEPTING THE RESIGNATION OF COUNCILMAN DONALD M. WEBER AND DECLARING A VACANCY IN COUNCIL DISTRICT 2, CITY OF ENGLEWOOD, COLORADO. City Attorney Berardini stated he understood that Mr. Weber had notified the Mayor of his resignation by tele- phone but had not yet submitted a written docwnent which Mr. Weber informed the Mayor he would do. Mr. Berardini suggested the word "delivered" under the third ''Whereas" of the resolu- tion be changed to "read". COUNCILMAN SMITH MOVED TO PASS RESOLUTION NO. 25, SERIES OF 1979, DELETING THE WORD "DELIVERED" IN THE THIRD WHEREAS AND INSERTING THE WORD "READ". Councilman Clayton seconded the motion. Mayor Taylor stated he would have to vote no because neither he nor the City staff have received a letter from Mr. Weber, only a telephone call. Mayor Taylor queried whether Council could accept the resignation without a letter. Mr. Berardini stated he was not aware of any provision in the Charter or the Code requiring resignation from office to be submitted in writing and he felt one could abandon office orally. Mr. Berardini offered to research the question if Council chose to do so. July 2, 1979 Page 12 Councilman Smith stated he thought a public statement was valid without submitting a formal letter. Upon a call of the roll, the vote on Councilman Smith's motion to pass Resolution No. 25, Series of 1979 resulted as fol- lows: Ayes: Nays: Absent: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williams. Council Member Taylor. Council Member Weber. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * COUNCILMAN CLAYTON K>VED TO PASS THE PROCLAMATION DE- CLARING THE WEEK OF JULY 9 -15, 1979, AS "ENGLEWOOD MUNICIPAL FEDERAL CREDIT UNION WEEK" AND TO CHANGE THE YEAR IN THE FIRST WHEREAS FROM "1959" TO "1979". Councilman Smith seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Nays: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williama, Taylor. None. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * City Attorney Berardini discussed the judgment of the Supreme Court in the case of Deluxe Theatres, Inc. vs. the City of Englewood. Mr. Berardini stated the Court ruled for the City in defending the levying of a theatre tax. RESOLUTION NO. 26 SERIES OF 1979 * * * * * * A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE PURCHASE OR CONDEMNATION OF A FEE SIMPLE INTEREST IN CERTAIN LANDS WITHIN THE CITY OF ENGLEWOOD, COLORADO, TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL PARKING FOR ELSIE MALLEY CENTENNIAL CENTER. City Attorney Berardini noted a change in language under Section 1. Mr. Berardini stated the word "staff" should be changed July 2, 1979 Page 13 to ''Manager and his designee" in the first line and in the third line. COUNCILMAN HARPER MOVED TO PASS RESOLUTION NO. 26, SERIES OF 1979 WITH THE CHANGES NOTED BY THE CITY ATTORNEY. Councilman Williams seconded the motion. COUNCILMAN SMITH MOVED TO AMEND THE MOTION WITH THE FOLLOWING: 1. UNDER SECTION 1 -IN ADDITION TO THE CHANGES PRO- POSED BY MR. BERARDINI, ADD A COLON FOLLOWING THE WORD "PARCELS" AND DELETE THE REST OF THE PARAGRAPH. 2. UNDER SECTION 2 -ADD THE WORD "AND" AFTER "APPRO- PRIATE" IN THE SECOND LINE; DELETE THE WORDS "AND ••• AWARDS" IN THE THIRD LINE; SUBSTITUTE THE WORD TAKEN" WITH "PURCHASED" IN THE FOURTH LINE AND DELETE THE REST OF THE PARAGRAPH. Councilman Clayton seconded the motion. Councilman Smith stated he made the amendments because he felt the property was neceaaary for parking; but it was not necessary for the City to enter into public condemnation should the staff not be able to negotiate for it. Mr. Smith stated the matter was not critical enough to justify eminent domain proceed- ings at this time. Councilman Harper disagreed. Mr. Harper matter is critical enough and the City should have to take the property. Mr. Harper stated the price and staff could negotiate forever. stated the the power may go up Councilman Clayton stated the property was necessary for the operation of the center to be used by the public. In responae to Councilman Mann's question, City Manager Mccown stated the amendment does not give the City power of eminent domain, and it could have a negative impact because the City would be limited to paying no more t&an the fair market value. The amend- ment could delay action if the matter is referred back to Council for further direction because a price could not be negotiated. Upon a call of the roll, the vote on the amendment resulted as follows: Ayea: Council Member Smith. July 2, 1979 Page 14 Nays: Council Members Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williama, Taylor. The Mayor declared the motion defeated. Upon a call of the roll, the vote on the original motion made by Councilman Harper resulted as follows: Ayes: Nays: Council Members Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williama, Taylor. Council Member Smith. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * City Attorney Berardini discussed the litigation concern--··o Mathews vs. the City ot Englewood involving the use of an alley in the 4800 block of South Fox. Councilman Mann asked to be excused from the meeting since the case involved his residence and himself as a private citizen. Council granted Mr. Mann's request. Mr. Berardini stated the litigation concerns the City's right to use a certain portion of the Mathews's property along with other properties along South Elati and South Fox in the 4800 block. Mr. Mathew•'• maintained that the City has no right to an alley in that location and the City maintained it to be a public alley. The Building Inspector revoked the Mathews's permit to build a fence in the location and when Mr. Mathews filed an appeal before the Board of Adjustment and Appeals, the Board upheld the Building Inspector's action to revoke the permit and not allow Mr. Mathews to build a fence. Mr. and Mrs. Mathews have the property for sale and want to withdraw the lawsuit against the City and request that the City withdraw its suit for declaratory judgment against them. Mr. Berardini stated he felt the question should be resolved one way or another and should be pursued to conclusion. Mr. Berardini recoD1Dended the lawsuit not be withdrawn. He stated if the Mathews do not pursue this matter, whoever buys the property may and the issue has to be resolved. COUNCILMAN SMITH MOVED TO CONCUR WITH THE RECOMMENDATION OF THE CITY ATTORNEY. Councilman Harper seconded the motion. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayes: Council Members Smith, Harper, Clayton, Williams, Taylor. July 2, 1979 Page 15 Nays: Hone. Absent: Council Member Mann. The Mayor declared the motion carried. Councilman Mann returned to the meeting. * * * * * * RESOLUTION NO. 27 SERIES OF 1979 A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY OF ERGLEWOOD, COLORADO, SUPPORTING THE CHANNELIZATION OF THI SOUTH PLATTE RIVER AND THE PASSAGE OF THE SENATE BILL 325 WHICH APPIOPIUATIS STATE FUNDING FOB. NECESSARY CHANNEL LAND ACQUISITIOI ARD RELOCATION OF UTILITIES. City Hana1er Mccown presented a copy of the City of Littleton'• llaaolution Ho. 38, Serie• of 1979 and a copy of a letter frcma Al Salazar, Aa1i1tant City Manager for Littleton supporting the channelisation of the South Platte River and the paaaage of Senate lill 325. COURCILMAR llAIPll. ll>VBD TO PASS RESOLUTION NO. 27, SERIES OF 1979. Councilman Willi ... aeconded the motion. Councilman Clayton aaked if the exp~nditure of funds required any City funda either matching or otherwise. City Manager Mccown anawared it would not. 10:00 p.m. Upon a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows: Ayea: Nays: Council Membera Smith, Harper, Clayton, Mann, Williama, Taylor. Rone. The Mayor declared the motion carried. * * * * * * There waa no further bu11ne1a to be discussed. * * * * * * Mayor Taylor adjourned the meeting without avote at