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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-05-13 FPB MINUTESFIREFIGHTERS PENSION BOARD SPECIAL MEETING May 13, 1999 A special meeting of the Englewood Firefighters Pension Board was called to order by Chairperson Ken Holland at 2 :00 p .m. in Conference Room A of the Englewood City Hall, 3400 South Elati Street. Members Present: Members Absent : Others Present: A quorum was present. Ken Holland , Chairperson, Employee Representative Tom Burns, Mayor Frank Gryglewicz, Director of Financial Services Michael Ballinger, Employee Representative Gary Kasson , Council Appointee Jay Seay , Employee Representative (notice) Jon Seay Rick DeWitt, Attorney Dan Brotzman, City Attorney Chris Olson, Director of Safety Services Don Seymour, Volunteer Retiree Paul Newport, Volunteer Retiree Gil Eggelston, Volunteer Retiree John Higgins, Volunteer Retiree Harry Homyak, Volunteer Retiree Tom McKay, Former Volunteer Firefighter Mark Stout, Former Volunteer Firefighter William Hamilton, Retired Fire Chief Carol Wescoat, Recording Secretary * * * * * HEARING OF BENEFIT REQUEST FROM JON SEAY Discussion of Jon Seay Chairperson Holland stated the Volunteer Firefighter records from the Englewood Public Library have been brought to the meeting for reference if needed . The Board permitted testimony from those present pertaining to their knowledge of the Volunteer Firefighters By-Laws and personal knowledge of Mr . Seay 's participation with the Volunteer Firefighters. Each witness was given an oath prior to giving their testimony . Chris Olson, Director of Safety Services, testified that his duties as a paid firefighter during 1981 or 1982 included providing required training for the Volunteer Firefighters . He stated he was familiar with Mr. Seay through Mr. Seay' s communication business, however, he did not recall Mr. Seay' s participating in required training. He stated the records of required training were kept by both the paid department and the volunteers. Mr. Olson stated he would check the records and provide definite dates he provided training. Mr. DeWitt inquired ifthe training was mandatory. Mr. Olson stated the intent of the training was to provide the Volunteers with a Firefighter Certification . William Hamilton, Retired Fire Chief, stated that he was on both the Volunteer and the paid departments from 1940 to 1978 . He recalled how the departments worked and commented on the requirement of Volunteers living in Englewood or a contracted district. Mr. Gryglewicz asked Mr. Hamilton if he recalled seeing Exhibit 3 . Mr. Hamilton stated he did not recall seeing the letter in 1976 and commented that it may have been sent to his office and filed . The Board questioned Mr. Hamilton regarding his knowledge of procedures followed by the Volunteers. Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. Hamilton about the initials on the letter. Mr . Hamilton stated he made his initials in a similar manner, but he questioned if the initials on the letter were his . Mr. DeWitt further questioned him regarding contracted service and a mutual aid agreements . Mr. Hamilton stated assisting other districts with fire service was generally a mutual agreement between districts, but there were no formal contracts. Mr. Hamilton stated his only knowledge of Mr. Seay's removal from the Volunteers was the letter presented as Exhibit 3 . Mayor Burns inquired about the residency requirement for Volunteers . Mr. Hamilton referred to the By-Laws stating Volunteers must be residents. He further commented that he was not involved with the Volunteers and was not certain if there was a mutual aid agreement between Volunteer Chiefs. Mr. Gryglewicz asked Mr. Hamilton ifhe had been the Chief in 1976 and since he was the Chief of the paid firefighters, would he have not taken notice of the letter from Mr . Jackson, if he received it. Mr. Hamilton stated that was correct. Mr. DeWitt questioned Mr. Hamilton regarding the initials on the letter compared to initials that he had just made on an envelope. Mr. DeWitt asked if the initials on the letter were similar enough to his own to be his initials. Mr. Hamilton stated his initials were a little different each time he wrote them . Mr. DeWitt asked if the initials on the letter were similar enough to be his own . Mr. Hamilton stated it was possible. Mr . DeWitt requested that the envelope be admitted as an Exhibit. Discussion ensued related to the letter to Mr. Hamilton. Firefighters Pension Board Meeting 2 Tom McKay, former Volunteer Firefighter, who served from June 1978 through 1983, testified that he had been very involved in the Volunteers during his five-year tenure. He attended meetings, activities, and training. He stated that training was mandatory, but was uncertain of the number of hours required . He added there were also a minimum number of fire calls that had to be attended . Chairperson Holland asked about the procedures for preparing the forms and adding the names of newer members to the rosters shown in the exhibits for equipment distribution , fire calls, and other records . Mr. McKay recalled that there was a Secretary and during his service that was Doug Sovern. Mr. Gryglewicz asked Mr. McKay ifhe had trained with Mr. Seay . He replied , no . Discussion followed pertaining to equipment distribution and the timeliness of obtaining initials on the form . Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. McKay if he had ever seen or met Mr. Seay at a Volunteer Fire Department function or meeting. He stated he did not remember him . Mr. DeWitt asked , if he did not meet him or he did not remember meeting him . Mr . McKay stated he did not remember ever meeting him , did not recall his face ... he did remember hearing his name. Mr . DeWitt referred to a document dated February 5, 1993. The document indicated that Mr. McKay's start date was November 1979 . Mr. McKay stated that it was possible that he was wrong on the dates, but he would have to research his records to verify the start date . Mr. DeWitt referred to Exhibit 15 dated, December 8, 1980 , and asked Mr . McKay ifhe had seen similar minutes . Discussion followed related to Mr. McKay's nomination as Trustee and a reference to the phrase, "Mr. Seay stated." Mr . McKay commented that he did not agree that it meant that Mr. Seay had been at the meeting or he had told Tom Fritz that the radios needed to be re-crystalled . Mr . McKay's interpretation of the minutes is that Mr. Seay talked to Mr. Fritz at some time and he told the Volunteers the radios would have be re-crystalled . Mr. DeWitt referred to Exhibit 17 and inquired ifMr. McKay knew Tom Fritz ' signature . He replied no . The Board took a brief recess , 3 : 15 -3 :20 p .m. A request to the Board was made to expedite the testimony of some attendees to testify so they could leave sooner. Gilbert Eggleston, retired Volunteer Firefighter, stated the records show Mr. Seay was on the volunteer firefighters and he thinks he should receive his pension . Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. Eggleston, what the policy had been to remove a Volunteer. He replied that he did not recall anyone ever being removed . Firefi ghters Pe nsion Board Meetin g 3 Mr. Kasson inquired about Mr. Eggleston's starting date and his recollection of any minimum qualifications to become and remain a Volunteer. Mr. Eggleston began in 1945 and stated that the Volunteers had to learn to use equipment and had to attend practice sessions . Mr. Kasson asked about the process of being accepted as a Volunteer, Mr. Eggleston said there was a waiting list and the next name on the list was selected. He did not recall any formal qualifications to be a Volunteer. Mr. Eggleston retired in 1969 . Mr. Gryglewicz inquired about working with other districts and other contracts . Mr. Eggleston stated they did work with other areas, such as Cherry Hills , but did not recall any specific contracts. Howard Homyak, retired Volunteer Firefighter, stated that any member who did not have the required training, etc., had to be voted out by two-thirds of the members present. This was done at a general meeting . It was required that all members attend the meetings twice a month , and complete the required hours of training . He said training was required in the By-Laws . Mr. Kasson asked about Mr. Homyak's service . Mr . Homyak served from 1944 to 1967 . He stated he had a 1964 roster that was distributed for elections , listing Mr. Seay ' s name and numbers . He did remember him . Mr. Gryglewicz mentioned a comment Mr. Homyak had made regarding that his son 's removal from the Volunteers . Mr. Homyak said his son had been removed by vote for not attending meetings and training. Mr. Kasson referred to Exhibit 3 that stated Mr. Seay was dropped from the rolls and inquired if a vote would have been taken prior to the letter being written . Mr. Homyak stated that a vote would have been taken a regular meeting . Chris Olson, Director of Safety Services, had returned after looking for records . He said on February 1, 1981 he was promoted to Captain of the paid firefighters and placed in charge of training . He presented a document that stated the objective of the training was to have all Volunteer Firefighters obtain a Level One Certification by December 1982 . The document listed the number of each participants' hours and training schedules . He referred to his handwritten notes on the training participants and did not find Mr. Seay ' s name on any of his lists as having attended or not attended . He also had the Englewood Volunteer Firefighter Roster from 1982 and Mr. Seay is not listed . He stated the rest of his records were from 1983 and Mr. Seay is not listed in any of those records . Chairperson Holland asked Mr . Olson how he obtained the roster and Mr. Olson replied that he requested the roster as part of the information that he needed to insure those who needed to attend participated . The Rosters probably came from Doug Sovern . Mr. DeWitt stated that Rosters for 1982 were not relevant because they did not state actual dates in 1982 . Firefi ght e rs Pe nsion Bo a rd M ee tin g 4 Mr. Olson restated he could not recall Mr. Seay attending any training in 1982 . Mr. DeWitt commented that since Mr. Seay claimed to leave the Volunteers in 1982, it would not make sense to train someone who is ready to leave . Chairperson Holland clarified that the Mr. Olson was made a Captain on February 1, 1981, and the official policy was to have all Volunteer Firefighter training implemented in January 1982 and completed by December 1982 . He inquired about Mr. Olson's participation with Volunteer Firefighters prior to January 1982 . Mr. Olson replied that his training was primarily with paid firefighters and he had minimal interaction with the Volunteer Firefighters at that point. The testimony returned to Tom McKay . Mr. DeWitt referred to Exhibits 16 and 17 . He inquired about Mr. McKay's recollection on seeing the forms , signing for equipment and receiving specific equipment at that time period . Mr. McKay did not recall . Mr. DeWitt clarified that Mr. McKay did not remember Mr. Seay . Mr. McKay stated that was correct. Mr. DeWitt asked if Mr. McKay was saying that Mr. Seay was not a Volunteer. He responded no . Further questions related to Mr. McKay's recollection of who was Secretary, ever having met Mr. Seay, had a vote by the membership to remove Mr. Seay , ensued . Mr. McKay responded no to the queries . Chairperson Holland inquired if Mr. McKay had the original copy of his application to the Volunteer Firefighters since Mr. DeWitt had questioned his start date based upon a document involving the transfer of members to the Sheridan Volunteer Firefighters . Mr. McKay said he would have to check . Paul Newport, retired Volunteer Firefighter, served from January 1961 to February 1981 . He recalled working with Mr. Seay as a Volunteer, but could not confirm Mr. Seay's dates of service. Mayor Burns inquired about a vote for would have been taken to remove Mr. Seay . Mr. Newport stated he did not recall a vote, but he may not have been at the meeting . Mr. DeWitt asked if it was rare for someone to be removed from the Volunteer Firefighters . Mr. Newport responded yes . Mr. DeWitt asked, since he recalled Mr. Seay serving as a Volunteer, if he recalled dates of service. Mr. Newport said he could not give specific dates . Further questions regarding Mr. Seay' s assistance with the Volunteer 's radios and the process of removing a member from the Volunteers ensued . Questions specifically regarding Mr. Kohut's and Mr. Wayne Homyak's removal were asked by Mr. DeWitt. Further questions followed regarding pride in be ing a Volunteer Firefighter . Firefighters Pension Board Mee ting 5 Mayor Burns asked about the application process . Mr. Newport stated that he attended a meeting as a guest which furthered his interest in becoming a member . The trustees came to his house and interviewed he and his wife to discuss some of the duties and responsibilities. The members voted on his application for membership. The Mayor questioned whether the first date of service was the application date or the date of acceptance. Mr. Newport was uncertain when the application was completed in relation to when he began as a Volunteer Firefighter. Mr. Gryglewicz referred to the section of the By-Laws that states a member who no longer qualifies to be a Volunteer Firefighter has the opportunity to take a six-month leave of absence or resign. He inquired if someone no longer met the qualifications, would the Board not be required, by two-thirds vote to remove them, or the individual would have the option ofresigning. Mr. Newport stated that was true. He stated in the two cases of removal that he recalled, the members resigned immediately. Mr. Kasson asked if Mr. Newport had ever had any leave of absence from the Volunteer Firefighters . He stated that other than his normal vacation he had no leave of absence . Mr. Kasson asked if it were possible that a vote to remove Mr. Seay could have been taken while he were on vacation . He responded that it was possible . Donald Seymour, retired Volunteer Firefighter, stated he served from 1962 to June 1984 . Mr. Seymour had a book that had belonged to Don McLellan and contained information that was pertinent to Volunteer Firefighters during his time with the Volunteers . The book contained records of service, training, and appointments . The book lists Mr. Seay 's service dates as, application received August 5, 1961, read at a meeting on August 14, 1961, and voted to probation August 28 , 1961 . Mr. Seymour stated that the date voted to probation was when you began performing duties of a Volunteer Firefighter . Mr. Seymour reviewed the Volunteer Firefighters records that he had in his possession, including Volunteer Firefighter Rosters . Discussion followed related to required training and attendance of meetings . Mr. Seymour could not recall the requirements . Mr. Ballinger asked if Mr. Seymour recalled Mr. Seay being an active Volunteer in 1981. Mr. Seymour stated he was off the Volunteer Firefighters Roster before then . Mayor Burns asked about the Roster. Mr. Seymour stated the Roster was the list of who could and would respond . His recollection was that when Mr. Seay moved out of the district he no longer could, or would respond to calls , or come to training and he thought that was the reason for the letter dropping him from the rolls was written. The Mayor referred to the address of Mr. Seay's home and asked if that what Mr. Seymour meant when he said out of the district. Mr. Seymour said yes . Discussion followed relating to copies of meeting minutes and where they were kept. Firefighters Pension Board Meeting 6 Chairperson Holland inquired about the possibility of a member who had been dropped from the rolls attending a call. Mr. Seymour thought that it would not be appropriate for Mr. Seay to attend calls if he were no longer a Volunteer. Mr. Gryglewicz asked about the need to re-apply if Mr. Seay had been dropped from the rolls and if Mr. Seymour had seen any application. Mr. Seymour replied "no" to both questions . Mr. Kasson inquired if the Volunteers attended training in 1982 as a group or were more sessions available . Mr. Seymour replied that they were all together and they attended as a group. Mr. Kasson asked if Mr. Seay attended the training. Mr. Seymour responded no . Mr. Kasson asked if Mr. Seymour could remember the last meeting or training he attended with Mr. Seay . He replied that he could not. Chairperson Holland asked if during the later part of his career, Mr . Seymour recalled responding to calls in Denver, Cherry Hills, Sheridan, or West Metro. He said not Denver, but recalls responding to calls in Sheridan, and a call in Cherry Hills . Mr. DeWitt referred to the book Mr. Seymour had brought to the meeting and stated that the book contained very little information . Mr. DeWitt requested that the book be admitted into evidence . Chairperson Holland acknowledged the request. Mr. DeWitt asked the last time Mr. Seymour looked at the minutes . Mr. Seymour could not recall . Mr. DeWitt further questioned Mr. Seymour 's ability to confirm the documents authenticity, presented in various Exhibits . Mr. Seymour was unable to recall or confirm the documents authenticity . Mr. Seymour did confirm that the forms appeared to be the standard forms used by the Volunteers . Mr. DeWitt's questioned the procedural timeliness of Mr. Seay being dropped from the rolls after he moved from Englewood . Mr. Seymour did not know how quickly that would have happened . Discussion followed regading Mr. Seymour 's conclusion that Mr. Seay was dropped from the rolls because he moved from the district and was not attending meetings or training . Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. Seymour how many meetings there were per month . Mr. Seymour stated two per month . Mr. DeWitt questioned Mr. Seymour's recollection of minute s and procedures . Mr. Seymour was not able to recall specific information . Mr. DeWitt stated that he and Mr. Seay had copies of the minutes that were available from 1976 and none of the minutes reflect a vote to remove Mr. Seay . Mr. DeWitt requested that Exhibits through number 29 be accepted by the Board . F irefi ghters Pension Board Meeting 7 Mr. DeWitt referred to Mr . Seymour's prior testimony stating that it would be improper for Mr. Seay to respond to a call after he had been dropped from the rolls . He also referred to a 1980 activity report listing Mr. Seymour and Mr. Seay responding to the same call. Mr. Seymour did not remember the call. Mr. DeWitt repeatedly questioned Mr . Seymour's recollection of the accuracy of the Exhibits . Mr . Seymour was not able to confirm Mr. Seay's participation as a Volunteer. Mr. DeWitt 's questions continued regarding the desire to eliminate the Volunteer Firefighters and when the Volunteers were disbanded . Mr. Seymour stated one individual desired to disband the Volunteers. The Volunteers were transferred to Sheridan after Mr. Seymour's retirement in 1984. The Board took a brief recess and resumed at 5 :26 p .m. Mr. Ballinger asked Mr . McKay about the number of names he recognized on Exhibit 16 , dated February 16 , 1981. Mr. McKay reviewed the Exhibit and stated that he recognized 10 of the approximately 20 names on the list. Mr. Ballinger pointed out that it appears to be the same form that was used in 1979, Exhibit 11. Mr. Ballinger asked if the form appeared to be an updated roster and Mr . McKay replied it did not. Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. McKay ifhe ever looked at the roster in 1981 and ifhe knew who was on the roster in 1981 . He stated that he assumed he had seen a roster in 1981 , but he did not know who was on the roster in 1981 . Mayor Burns requested clarification from Mr . Seymour regarding the schedule of meetings. Mr. Seymour replied the Volunteer Firefighters met twice a month . Mr . Gryglewicz asked Mr . Seay when he had moved to 3635 South Carr, Denver. Mr. Seay stated he moved to the address in October 1972. Mr. Gryg lewicz clarified that Mr. Seay had moved from Englewood to Denver. Mr. Seay said that it was not Denver actually, it was unincorporated county . Mr. Gryglewicz asked if Mr. Seay 's commanding officer was aware that he had moved out of the City . Mr. Seay replied, yes . Mr. Gryglewicz questioned the reason for the leave of absence . Mr. Seay stated that he was expanding his building on South Zuni . Mr. DeWitt questioned Mr . Seay about the 1975 leave of absence . Mr . Seay stated he requested a six month leave of absence, but did not take the entire six months leave of absence, but could not recall the date he returned to service . Mr. Seay stated he had not seen Exhibit 3 , the letter from Mr. Jackson, prior to receiving Mr. Brotzman 's letter dated , September 11, 1998 . Mr. DeWitt asked if Mr. Seay had been actively involved as a Volunteer Firefighter other than the leave of absence. Mr. Seay said , yes . Firefi ghters P ension Board Meeting 8 Mr. DeWitt reviewed the Exhibits and Mr. Seay's claim of Volunteer Firefighter service. He queried Mr. Jon Seay regarding his knowledge of the Exhibits presented as evidence to affirm his service as a volunteer firefighter. Chairperson Holland requested proceeding with testimony from Mark Stout. Mark Stout, former Volunteer Firefighter, he served from 1977 to 1980 and resigned as a Lieutenant. Chairperson Holland questioned Mr. Stout. Mr. Stout stated that his desire to obtain a position on the paid department led him to train and participate as much as possible . He did not recall the specific number of training hours necessary in a month. He recalls training records being submitted to the Captains but does not know where the records went after the Captains had them . He recalls getting a copy of the By-Laws when he was accepted as a Volunteer. Mr. Ballinger asked if during his time as a Volunteer he remembered Mr. Seay participating with the Volunteers . Mr. Stout did not. Mayor Burns inquired about the number of Volunteers serving . Mr. Stout confirmed Mr. Seymour 's comments that the Volunteer numbers were dwindling . Mr. Stout said that he felt like he knew all of the Volunteers, but did not remember Jon Seay . He knew Mr. Seay through his radio communication company . He did not recall Mr. Seay being a member of the Volunteers during the years he was there. Mr. Kasson asked when Mr. Stout recalled meeting Mr. Seay . He said it was a few years ago and it was through Mr. Seay's brother Jay . He clarified that it was after he became a paid firefighter in 1983 , and although he was unable to recall specifics he stated he met Jon on a social basis , totally unrelated to work. Mr. Kasson referred to the statement that Mr. Stout had made indicating he thought he knew all the Volunteers and asked how that was so . Mr. Stout said he knew them because he saw them at meetings and on calls . Mr. Kasson asked if it were possible that he could have gone to meetings, calls, and training, and Mr. Seay could have been there, but not come to his attention . Mr. Stout stated , no , because the group was not that big . Mr. Kasson asked about Exhibit 16 dated in 1981 that included Mr. Seay' s initials . He questioned that ifMr. Stout did not know Mr. Seay from 1977 to 1980 as a Volunteer, how is it possible to have Mr . Seay' s initials on a document. Mr. Stout said he could not answer that because he was not a Volunteer at that time . Mr. Kasson asked if there was anyone who could answer that question. Mr. Gryglewicz referred to Exhibit 12 that indicated that Mr. Stout and Mr. Seay responded to a fire . Mr. Stout did not recall the fire or any of the details . Mr. DeWitt asked about Mr . Stout's written training records . Mr. Stout stated he probably destroyed all of his personal training records. Mr. DeWitt asked if the Volunteers kept any training records . Mr. Stout said yes . Mr. DeWitt ask about specific Firefighters Pension Board Meetin g 9 records . Mr. Stout recalled that training records must have been kept because there were a minimum number of training hours required to be able to respond to calls. Mr. DeWitt asked if he had seen the records. Mr. Stout said he had seen a list of hours. Mr. DeWitt asked where it was and Mr. Stout said he did not know. Mr. Stout stated that during his time as a Volunteer, he was required to have "X" amount of training in specific areas before he was able to respond to calls . Mr. DeWitt asked about Mr. Stout's familiarity with Tom Fritz and if he followed the rules as a Captain. Mr. Stout stated that to his knowledge he did. Mr. Stout commented that a Volunteer would not be given a pager or tone box unless they had met the requirements to respond. Mr. DeWitt also asked if Mr. Stout was the only one doing training . Mr. Stout said no there were lots of others. Mr. DeWitt asked ifit were possible that Mr. Stout did not know which Volunteers were training with each other and Mr. Stout did not know that those members trained with other Volunteers . Mr. Stout agreed , but stated he knew the people that came to the meetings . Mr. Stout said he was sure that he had not attended all of the meetings, but attended as many as he could, as he considered himself one of the more active members at the time . Mr. DeWitt referred to Exhibit 12 . Mr. DeWitt restated what the training requirements were for Mr. Seay to respond to calls and asked Mr. Stout since Mr. Seay' s name was written on the pre-printed form, that meant he was an active. Mr. Stout stated that it was not in his scope of authority to say Mr. Seay had met the requirements, and he clarified that he had not claimed Mr. Seay was a not Volunteer, only that he had not met Jon Seay. Mr. Ballinger asked Mr. Stout how large the organization was during the time he was a Volunteer . Mr. Stout stated 15 to 20 at the most. Mr . Ballinger said that it would not be difficult to keep track of that few of people. Mr. Stout confirmed that was how he felt too . Chairperson Holland referred to Exhibit 10 and asked if Mr. Stout recognized the names on the list. Mr. Stout said yes . Chairperson Holland asked if he could recall if those people were attending training and were active in the organization. Mr. Stout recalled many of the people listed were training and active . Mr. Kasson asked why Mr. Stout's name is not listed on Exhibit 10 . Mr. Stout responded that he did not know, and did not know where the Exhibit had come from. Mr. Kasson asked if Mr. Stout had ever signed a roster like this and he replied , probably so. Mr. Stout reminded the Board that the Exhibits covered a period twenty years prior and even in his current job he has to sign for the equipment he is issued. Since they signed for equipment then and still sign now, he was sure there was someplace a piece of paper with his name on it that he signed for some piece of equipment. It was also possible that at the time that he did not need a spaner, so his name is not listed. Chairperson Holland asked if it was common for some names to be omitted on the response rosters . Mr. Stout said that was the nature of the beast, being voluntary, some Firefighters Pension Board Meeting 10 people would attend and some would not. Chairperson Holland clarified that the forms had pre-printed names, and inquired if some rosters had a complete list of members and some would be incomplete. Mr. Stout said he could not answer that. Mayor Burns asked about the names written on Exhibit 12 to see if Mr. Stout knew if one person could have written the names , since the handwriting seems to be by the same person. Mr. Stout said that he assumed the printed portion of the activity report is a generic copy the names of the active members at that time and the names written at the bottom could be new firefighters . The Mayor clarified that the names written were not individuals' signatures, someone else wrote the names . Mr. Stout said that was correct. Mr. DeWitt returned to reviewing the Exhibits and Mr. Seay's affirmation of his Volunteer Firefighters service as previously stated . Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. Seay if he was actively involved in the Volunteer Firefighters . Mr. Seay said yes . Mr. DeWitt asked if Mr. Seay received equipment. Mr. Seay said yes. He asked if he had done training . Mr. Seay said some, yes. He asked if Mr. Seay was doing enough training to continue to be a Volunteer . Mr. Seay said yes . Mr. DeWitt asked if there were minimum training requirements to attend house fires . Mr. Seay said yes , and he did attend fires. Mr. DeWitt returned to reviewing the Exhibits and Mr. Seay 's affirmation of his Volunteer Firefighters service as previously stated . Mr. DeWitt referred to Exhibit 15 and asked Mr. Seay if he had been present at the meeting or if someone at the meeting quoted him . Mr. Seay said that he had made the statement at the meeting . Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. Seay what his roll was as a Volunteer with respect to radios. (Mr. Seay's response was indecipherable .) Mr. DeWitt asked why Mr. Seay would have done this and not someone else. Mr. Seay said that was his business . Mr. DeWitt asked how many years he had been in the business at that point. Mr. Seay said 12 or 13 . Mr. Seay stated he provided communication services for the Englewood Paid Fire Department and other departments. Mr. DeWitt asked if Mr. Seay if he recalled Mr. McKay, and Mr. Seay said that he thought he recalled a training session on Scott airbags . Mr. DeWitt asked about his recollection of Mark Stout. Mr. Seay recalled seeing Mark at meetings . Mr. DeWitt asked about Exhibit 16 . Mr. Seay said he recalled getting the gloves and thought he still had them and they are brand new. Mr. DeWitt asked if Mr. Seay were actively involved from before October 15 , 1975 to February 16 , 1981 continuously throughout that period , meeting all of the requirements of the Englewood Volunteers. Mr. Seay said yes . Firefi ght e rs Pension Board Meetin g 11 Mr. DeWitt returned to reviewing the Exhibits and Mr. Seay's affirmation of his Volunteer Firefighters service as previously stated. Mr. DeWitt referred to Exhibit 17 and asked if Mr. Seay was assigned to Jefferson Station. Mr. Seay said yes . Mr. Seay said he slept there all night and it was not one his favorite things to do. Mr. DeWitt asked why this particular date sticks in his mind. Mr. Seay said that because his brother was on duty. He further stated that he did not like being away from his family overnight and there continued to be more requirements put on the Volunteers . He said there was more time spent training and in the station, and then , they would not be called on fires . Mr. DeWitt asked if it was shortly after this time that Mr. Seay quit the Volunteers. Mr. Seay said yes . Mr. DeWitt asked if it was Mr. Seay's understanding that he met the requirements for qualifying for Volunteer Firefighters pension. Mr. Seay said yes at that time. Mr. Seay said he would like to restate, he never quit, he quit going to meetings and training . Mr. Seay said he started going less in 1982 . He was still involved with the Volunteers including moving assets around, storing fire equipment in buildings for approximately six years . Mr. Seay stored the fire truck, ambulance , all the badges, and all the trophies . Mr. Seay stored the fire truck in his building on Zuni and later moved it to another warehouse until 1995. Mr. DeWitt ask the approximate cost to store the equipment. (cannot hear response) Mr. DeWitt asked if Mr. Seay had charged the Volunteers for the storage and he replied yes , after he had to move it from his building to another warehouse . He charged $3 5 per month which was his direct cost. That was sometime around 1990 or 1991 and later he moved it back to a facility that he was not paying rent . Mr. DeWitt referred to February 17, 1982, and asked if there was any doubt that Mr. Seay was an active member of the Volunteers. Mr. Seay said yes, he was as active as anybody else during that period . Mr. DeWitt stated that after that period of time, Mr. Seay was still involved, but his level of activity declined. Mr. Seay said , right. Mr. De Witt asked why Mr. Seay had not stayed active with the Volunteer Firefighters after 1982. Mr. Seay said he did not see any purpose . They were not being utilized and were putting in more time and training than the paids . Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. Seay what his understanding was with respect to residing in Lakewood and being a member of the Volunteer Firefighters from 1972 on . Mr. Seay said he was still within the allowed response time and still within a contracted fire district. Mr. DeWitt asked him about Mr. Seymour's testimony that he was not involved after 1982 . Mr. Seay said he believed he was wrong as were Mr. McKay and Mr. Stout. Mr. Seay stated he believed he met the requirements to qualify for an Englewood Volunteer Firefighters pension . Mr. Seay referred to an Executive Board meeting in , November 1978, that Mr. Kohut attended . He remembers that Mr. Kohut had trouble meeting the requirements and he thinks the records will reflect that as a result of this meeting they sent him a letter telling Firefi ghters Pension Board Meeting 12 him that he did not meet the requirements of a Volunteer Firefighter. Mr. Kohut was not a member of the Executive Board, so he was there for some other reason. Mr. DeWitt asked the process for removing a volunteer. Mr. Seay said that as a result of this meeting a letter would have been sent, they would call him and tell him that he had not met the requirements and he had to come to the Executive Board meeting to explain reasons for not having training or getting the training. Mr. DeWitt asked if a member were to be removed, but resigned, would that be a vote before the membership at a regular meeting . Mr. Seay said yes. Mr. Kasson referred to Exhibits 17 and 20 and asked Mr. Seay if it was his signature on the documents. Mr. Seay said yes. Mr. Kasson asked who had put the dates on the form . Mr. Seay said he recognized his writing on his dates and assumed each individual dated the form when they signed. Mr. Kasson asked why Mr. Seay had made the number eight differently on each . Mr. Seay said sometimes he makes them as two circles and sometimes he makes them all in one . Mayor Bums referred to Mr. Seymour's testimony that he was the last Volunteer to retire, and asked what his duties were during 1983 and 1984 since Mr. Seay testified that they were not being used and there wasn't much to do . Mr. Seymour said they were still responding. Mayor Bums asked about the normal process of retirement. Mr. Seymour said the applicant wrote a letter and included a birth certificate as proof of age 50. Mayor Burns asked if anyone just stopped coming . Mr. Seymour said no . Mayor Bums asked if a Volunteer had over 20 years of service, would they just stop coming and receive a pension. Mr. Seymour said, he recalled, it was pretty formally done . Mr. Gryglewicz referred to the section of By-Laws that state the resignation of a member shall be submitted at the next regular meeting of the department. He asked if it was required that everyone submit a resignation . Mr. Seymour said he supposed so if they could catch him . If someone left and had not competed everything, there would be no way to force them. Mr. Gryglewicz asked if most of the Volunteers had personnel files and Mr. Seymour did not know . Mr. DeWitt stated he thought they did , but a lot of the records are not there . Mayor Bums asked if Exhibit 17, with Mr. Seay's signature dated February 17, 1982 is the latest record of his service . Mr. Seay said that was the last record of him showing up at a fire . He stated a policy change after that date allowed him to check in with a paid firefighter and not sign . Mr. Seay stated there was not a specific date that he stopped showing up at fires. Mr. Seay confirmed his dates of leave and stated that the older guys were not as active as some of the younger guys . Some of the younger guys wanted to get the training and go on to paid departments, but that was not his intent . Again , he stated he was as active as some of the older members , but some of the younger members were more active . Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. Seymour when the Quincy Station was closed. He did not remember, some time after he retired . The Volunteers went to Sheridan and they cleaned it out. Mr. DeWitt asked if Mr. Seay had taken possession of fire trucks . Mr. Seymour Firefighters Pe nsion Board Meeting 13 said yes . Mr. DeWitt asked ifthe Volunteer Fire Company was re-incorporated about 1985 . Mr. Seymour was not sure . Mr. DeWitt asked Mr. Seay what had happened to the Quincy Station . Mr. Seay said he believed the City took it back, sold it, and later demolished it around 1979 or 1980 . Chairperson Holland asked if everyone at the meeting was in agreement that all information has been presented and if there were any questions regarding the Exhibits . Mr. Ballinger referred to various Exhibits that list names inconsistent with the membership according to the date on the form . He also stated that on Exhibit 11 , dated November 16 , 1979 , lists Dale Jackson, but he believes Dale died in July of that year. It appears to initialed by him . Chairperson Holland asked if all the documents submitted have been addressed . Mr. Ballinger asked about the inconsistent dates individual Exhibits were signed . He stated that some documents were signed sometime after the date of the form . Mr. Seay had noticed the dates . Discussion followed , but no knew of the reasons for different dates on the exhibits presented . Chairperson Holland addressed photocopies of files from the Volunteer records. The copies included several years of Rosters , activity reports, and training files . The records presented do not include Mr . Seay on any 1978 or 1981 Volunteer Firefighters Rosters . The Activity Reports from 1976 and 1977 do not document the participation of Mr. Seay . Chairperson Holland asked if the documents submitted are recognized as having come from the Volunteer Firefighters records . Mr. DeWitt asked if Exhibits he presented were in the records. Chairperson Holland said that he assumes the documents presented all came from the records with the exception of the books presented by Mr. Seymour. Mr. Kasson asked Mr. DeWitt why Mr. Seay was not listed on the documents presented . Mr. DeWitt responded that he is not saying what Mr. Seay didn't do. Mayor Burns moved to accept the documents presented as exhibits of evidence . Mr. Kasson seconded . Ayes : Nays : Absent : The motion carried . Holland, Ballinger, Burns, Gryglewicz, Kasson, None Seay Chairperson Holland asked if there were additional questions of Mr . Seymour. Mr. Seymour was excused . Firefighters Pension Board M ee ting 14 The Board to a recess from 7 : 10 p .m. to 7:20 p .m. Chairperson Holland asked for any further questions or evidence before the Board. If there was none, he would like to close the hearing at that point, and listen to the presentation of arguments, and the Board will determine if a decision would be made immediately or at a meeting at a later date. He asked if there were any more questions regarding the information. Hearing none, he would like to close the hearing . MR. GRYGLEWICZ MOVED TO CLOSE THE JON SEAY HEARING. MR. BALLINGER SECONDED . Ayes : Nays : Absent: The motion carried. Holland , Ballinger, Burns, Gryglewicz, Kasson, None Seay Mr. DeWitt presented arguments . He mentioned the opinions that were presented . He said the documents that Chairperson Holland presented were not official, they were social. He said the wives names were listed , that the Rosters were social. He said the documents were not official. Mr. DeWitt reviewed the exhibits presented and the Volunteer Firefighters records . Mayor Burns asked Mr. DeWitt why the documents he presented from the Volunteer Firefighters records were more official than those addressed by Chairperson Holland . Mr. DeWitt said the testimony indicated that they were the records of the entity . Mayor Bums asked if they were records that came out of the same Volunteer Firefighter records boxes . Mr. DeWitt discussed the difference between the official records of an organization and the unofficial records of an organization . Mayor Burns said the activity records look just like those presented by Mr. DeWitt. Mr. DeWitt said he did not disagree with the activity records . Mr. DeWitt questioned the committee lists . Mr. DeWitt said that the focus was not on what committee Mr. Seay was on over a period ohime, but if Mr.· Seay had made a contribution for 20 years . Mr. Ballinger asked about the 1978 Roster that did not list Mr. Seay. Mr. DeWitt stated it was not an official roster, that it was never approved by the organization, there are no minutes approving it , and some have the wives' names. Chairperson Holland asked how long Mr. Seay had been Deputy Chief Mr. Seay said five years and six months consecutively . He was nominated for Deputy Chief in December 1975 and did not get it. He said that he was relieved , because he did not like the direction Firefi ghters Pension Board M ee tin g 15 they were going . Chairperson Holland asked if he had wanted to be an officer, and Mr. Seay replied, no, he just wanted to fade off into the woodwork. Mr. Ballinger asked why the same forms used in 1981 were used in 1976 when there should have been new names added. Mr. Ballinger said that Dale Jackson was dead for a couple of years, Roger Miller had been retired . Mr. DeWitt said that testimony was not in the record and he did not know when Dale Jackson died and would like to know. Chairperson Holland said that Dale Jackson's death was part of the record because it came out as a discrepancy in the Exhibits . Mr. DeWitt said nobody testified to that. He said Mr. Ballinger had said that, but he is not under oath. Mr. DeWitt said that if they were to create a record of Mr. Seay's service, they could do better than this . He said that if the Board wanted to focus on what Mr. Seay didn 't do, there were more boxes out there . He said he didn't do a lot of things , but what he did do is the focus here . He met the requirements, he was never removed, there was never a hearing, why that letter is there he has no idea . Mr. Hamilton does not recall the letter and finds it suspicious . Mr . DeWitt said that looking at the 20 year period there is no record of reprimand . If someone had said he had been terminated officially in the records that would have been brought up and it was not. He said the benchmark is there for Mr. Seay' s service . He said there were touchstones, there are specific timeframes where he is involved and there is absolutely nothing to show that he was not involved in the interim time period . Mr. DeWitt would like to see Mr. Seay's name on one of the social rosters, but it is not. He does not think it is relevant. Mr. Seay may not have wanted his name published that way . He knows that Mr. Seay was at fires and received equipment. He said , according to testimony, Mr . Seay was not supposed to be at those fires , but he does show-up. Mr. DeWitt said he did not know that any Volunteer had ever undergone the scrutiny Mr. Seay has . He said the Board has a responsibility to Mr. Seay, he served 20 years and he was out there doing the work too . Just because the Volunteers in later years did not keep very good records does not mean that he should suffer . There is an absence of good solid records . He said there is no record saying Jon Seay was not a Volunteer. These are records documenting he was a Volunteer in excess of 20 years . He commented on the lack of Volunteer Firefighters records . Mr. DeWitt said that if records were reviewed and compared , Jon Seay clearly qualifies and the evidence is unrebutted. He referred to conflicting testimony as to Mr. Seay being there . MR. GRYGLEWICZ MOVED TO APPROVED A VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER PENSION BENEFIT. MR. KASSON SECONDED . The Board agreed to continue the hearing on Thursday, May 20 , 1999 at 5 :00 p .m. Firefi ghters P e nsion Board Mee ting 16 MR. GRYGLEWICZ MOVED TO ADJOURN. MR. KASSON SECONDED. Ayes : Nays : Absent : The motion carried . Holland , Ballinger, Gryglewicz, Kasson, Burns None Seay Meeting adjourned at 7:45 p.m. Carol Wescoat Recording Secreta ry Firefi ght ers Pe nsion Board Meetin g 17